Poll - Sherwood - got rid

[pauliewalnuts]

There's plenty of people out there who could be a good fit.

So you're not prepared to allow the current Manager a reasonable amount of patience but want to spend a fortune to bring in a Foreign Manager with no Premiership experience at all? Following the pattern, we'd then give that Manager what, 20 games, before going through the process again if it wasn't working?

What was it that Tom Fox said about flipping a coin again...?

It all depends what you term a reasonable amount of patience. Say we pick up one point from the next three games, what then? I can't imagine many teams have stayed up after taking 5 points from their first ten games, so at what point do you call it quits?  Of course, we might do much better than that and of course I hope he rams my words down my throat with at least 7 points.  But my question is at what point if this poor run continues do you let him go?  In my doomsday scenario above, it would still be mid October.

That's the tricky thing.

My preference is to sack him now. Harsh, I know, but I just think he's so out of his depth he won't improve.

Having said that, if we give him time, like you said, we have to be careful how much time that is. It is difficult to say something like "Christmas" when we don't know what will have happened.

How would people feel having said give him till Christmas only for us to now lose our next few matches - as you said?

Lambert got an absurd amount of time. The first two seasons were bad enough to get most managers sacked, the third was so awful it defies description, and look how long they left him in place. Far too long.

That is what is key to me in this situation. I've had enough of managers who clearly can't hack it getting far too long in the job, while we just poke around the relegation places year after year. We should have better standards than this.

If we want this doubt and ill feeling towards Sherwood to go away, there is only one person who can change that - Sherwood. He needs to get us winning games. Who knows, perhaps we'll put together back to back league wins again?

[pauliewalnuts]

The thing that grates me about this thread is that so few are prepared to entertain the idea that Sherwood might learn from his mistakes. Against Leicester he was rightfully criticised for his substitutions. Our excellent first-half performance has largely been forgotten because of the result. Against the Blose he made 2 game-changing ones that won us the game. Yet much of the focus is still on our poor first-half performance, rather than the result. See where I’m coming from?

What about Albion? And Liverpool, for that matter? And Sunderland - that's Sunderland, one of the worst sides the top flight has seen in a long time, who we couldn't beat at home.

[YamYamVilla]

I have voted no, although I cant prove it, I thought we were odds on to go down under Lambert, Sherwood has at least earned a crack at the job properly.

He has made a lot of signings, not all of which had preseason with us, this must take time for them to become comfortable with their new surroundings & in the group etc, the signings from the French league all look Fcuked after 70minutes too, they cant be fit enough just yet.

The biggest error he is making for me is starting with both Westwood & Sanchez in the same starting XI, they occupy the same space & offer very little, I don't rate either of them!

[RussellC]

So have we been stable for 3 seasons or fighting relegation? Because they're 2 different things in my book.

Stability in football is described as not changing manager and allowing the appointed person time to sort things out. We did that by sticking with Lambert for 3 seasons.
Fighting relegation is just the state of performance similar to fighting to get in the Champions League or actually trying to win the title. Stability produced very poor performance for us whereas for Arsenal, for example, it delivered consistent Champions League football. Chelsea however maintained a very high level of performance without having stability in their coaching staff. Crystal Palace have done much better than us  by changing Managers.

Sorry, but the idea that constantly fighting relegation equates to 'stability' is utter nonsense. The threat of relegation carries hugely negative financial implications, completely the opposite to consistently challenging for the Title or Champions League qualification. Surely you can see that?

I think you've missed the point Russell. I don't think for one minute Olly is calling that kind of stability anything to be pleased about.

But it's not even stability. 'Consistent' maybe. (as in 'consistently unstable'), but then I'm not really sure what point is being made and I've therefore missed? Lambert's tenure was littered with instability. The bomb-squad, the coaching staff debacle, Benteke's transfer request, an owner who did, didn't, did want to sell the club. You're not really telling me that Sherwood walked into a 'stable' club or situation are you?

[Toronto Villa]

So have we been stable for 3 seasons or fighting relegation? Because they're 2 different things in my book.

Stability in football is described as not changing manager and allowing the appointed person time to sort things out. We did that by sticking with Lambert for 3 seasons.
Fighting relegation is just the state of performance similar to fighting to get in the Champions League or actually trying to win the title. Stability produced very poor performance for us whereas for Arsenal, for example, it delivered consistent Champions League football. Chelsea however maintained a very high level of performance without having stability in their coaching staff. Crystal Palace have done much better than us  by changing Managers.

Sorry, but the idea that constantly fighting relegation equates to 'stability' is utter nonsense. The threat of relegation carries hugely negative financial implications, completely the opposite to consistently challenging for the Title or Champions League qualification. Surely you can see that?

I think you've missed the point Russell. I don't think for one minute Olly is calling that kind of stability anything to be pleased about.

But it's not even stability. 'Consistent' maybe. (as in 'consistently unstable'), but then I'm not really sure what point is being made and I've therefore missed? Lambert's tenure was littered with instability. The bomb-squad, the coaching staff debacle, Benteke's transfer request, an owner who did, didn't, did want to sell the club. You're not really telling me that Sherwood walked into a 'stable' club or situation are you?

I think the aim was to not chop and change with Lambert. Thats the aim of stability to ride through some of the ups and downs. Look at it a bit like a stock that you invest in. Even if it improves over time when looked at in years of growth it can still have ups and downs in between. In the case of Lambert the desire for stability in the manager position was driving our value down to ultimately relegation. Nobody wanted that and we sold just before we all lost our shirts.

[kippaxvilla2]

There's plenty of people out there who could be a good fit.

So you're not prepared to allow the current Manager a reasonable amount of patience but want to spend a fortune to bring in a Foreign Manager with no Premiership experience at all? Following the pattern, we'd then give that Manager what, 20 games, before going through the process again if it wasn't working?

What was it that Tom Fox said about flipping a coin again...?

It all depends what you term a reasonable amount of patience. Say we pick up one point from the next three games, what then? I can't imagine many teams have stayed up after taking 5 points from their first ten games, so at what point do you call it quits?  Of course, we might do much better than that and of course I hope he rams my words down my throat with at least 7 points.  But my question is at what point if this poor run continues do you let him go?  In my doomsday scenario above, it would still be mid October.

That's the tricky thing.

My preference is to sack him now. Harsh, I know, but I just think he's so out of his depth he won't improve.

Having said that, if we give him time, like you said, we have to be careful how much time that is. It is difficult to say something like "Christmas" when we don't know what will have happened.

How would people feel having said give him till Christmas only for us to now lose our next few matches - as you said?

Lambert got an absurd amount of time. The first two seasons were bad enough to get most managers sacked, the third was so awful it defies description, and look how long they left him in place. Far too long.

That is what is key to me in this situation. I've had enough of managers who clearly can't hack it getting far too long in the job, while we just poke around the relegation places year after year. We should have better standards than this.

If we want this doubt and ill feeling towards Sherwood to go away, there is only one person who can change that - Sherwood. He needs to get us winning games. Who knows, perhaps we'll put together back to back league wins again?

I don't agree about sacking him now as you will have gathered.  However, your penultimate paragraph does again remind me of just how football is utterly unique in appointing people who have virtually no previous experience of credentials for the job.  Considering it is a £bn business these days, it is utterly remarkable that it continues to happen.

[Ger Regan]

I think a good part of the reason that sherwood isn't getting the patience afforded to other managers is that he was a much more divisive appointment than, say, lambert at the time. For me at least, I want him gone because the very concerns that I had about him are coming to pass, with precious little signs of any improvement (in fact it's getting progressively worse).

[Meanwood Villa]

I've voted no. It's been a dreadful start but I think he deserves a crack at turning it round.

[ez]

He's still got time on his side as we've got a lot of new players but that won't last much longer. We're coming up to the time when we can expect things to come together. If Sherwood wants to establish himself as a premier league manager and reap all of it's rewards he really needs to do well with us. Failure and he will probably end up managing in the lower leagues for the rest of his career.

[RussellC]

What about Albion? And Liverpool, for that matter? And Sunderland - that's Sunderland, one of the worst sides the top flight has seen in a long time, who we couldn't beat at home.

Against Sunderland we had 21 shots and 62% possession. I don't think Sherwood's tactics can be held accountable for that one. We were poor against the Baggies, and Sherwood was quite open in his admission of that. Against Liverpool we lost to a better team than us.  I don't see any of these (or a combination of them) as justification for firing Sherwood at this stage of the season. There have been really, really fine margins in all of our games this season. We're not getting hammered and we're also carrying a goal-threat.

I really don't know why anybody expected anything different to the start of this season. There's been massive upheaval within the playing and coaching staff this summer and we have a long, long way to go this season. As the season progresses we'll nick points in games like the Palace and West Brom ones and wins in games like the Leicester one. Players like Ayew, Veretout, Gueye and Richards will settle and improve and, if we're still struggling at Christmas, we'll dip into the transfer market in January.

[Toronto Villa]

I think a good part of the reason that sherwood isn't getting the patience afforded to other managers is that he was a much more divisive appointment than, say, lambert at the time. For me at least, I want him gone because the very concerns that I had about him are coming to pass, with precious little signs of any improvement (in fact it's getting progressively worse).

For me he did a lot of very good things very quickly to turn a sinking ship around. He appointed a coaching staff and motivated the players to achieving some excellent results most notably for me, Spurs (a), Liverpool (cup) and Man City (a) even though we lost. That told me he was capable of what he hoped he was capable of. Unfortunately he simply hasn't built on it despite being afforded the liberty of bringing in his own players. I accept that players take time to bed in but he isn't giving them the best chance to settle in quickly by some bizarre strategy, if that's what it can be called. And while is bravado was breath of fresh air last season after Mr Manic Depressive, he really needs a mint now because it is getting fucking stale.

[RussellC]

I think the aim was to not chop and change with Lambert. Thats the aim of stability to ride through some of the ups and downs. Look at it a bit like a stock that you invest in. Even if it improves over time when looked at in years of growth it can still have ups and downs in between. In the case of Lambert the desire for stability in the manager position was driving our value down to ultimately relegation. Nobody wanted that and we sold just before we all lost our shirts.

Well, quite, but to continue the analogy Sherwood is the guy who's taken over the company with the share-price at rock bottom and been charged with turning it around. Hence the need for patience.

[RussellC]

That told me he was capable of what he hoped he was capable of. Unfortunately he simply hasn't built on it despite being afforded the liberty of bringing in his own players.

When I read things like this I genuinely think that some of our Supporters have just forgotten that we lost 4 of our best players in the summer.

"Afforded the liberty of bringing in his own players"?? Come on - that's not serious is it?

[oldhill_avfc]

The signings have been pretty good, I don't think anyone would argue with that. But what's concerning is that he doesn't appear to know what he wants to do with them. Maybe one of the reasons they're taking so much time to gel is because they're getting confused messages.

I'm not sure the signings have been that great to be honest.  None of them are screaming for selection and they all get better when they ain't playing - a sure sign things aren't right.

This is reflected in your second point that he doesn't know what is best team is or how to use them tactically.

We've lost our best forward and replaced him with 2 options, both of which have failed to convince.

We've lost our best midfielder and replaced him with 2 options, both of which have failed to convince, although Gueye is promising.  Westwood and Sanchez still seem to be first choice and they're proven relegation fodder.   We are still appalling at set pieces and desparately need someone on the left side of midfield to support Grealish (especially away from home) and to link with Amavi.

The defence as a unit is shipping goals.  Richards looks good, but Lescott looks like he's running in porridge and Amavi has made too many mistakes.  Hutton and Bacuna are still there at right back ....

Look, I like Sherwood.  He did well last season and did what he could over the summer - he was forced to roll the dice, but based on what I've seen things ain't looking good.

It's alright going on about losing at Palace, Leicester and Liverpool, but for me the last 3 home games have been more telling.  Not being able to beat an abysmal Sunderland, a no show vs. the baggies and the jaw dropping abomination that was the first half vs. the blues are the real indicators of why we'll get relegated unless things change quickly - very quickly.

[Toronto Villa]

That told me he was capable of what he hoped he was capable of. Unfortunately he simply hasn't built on it despite being afforded the liberty of bringing in his own players.

When I read things like this I genuinely think that some of our Supporters have just forgotten that we lost 4 of our best players in the summer.

"Afforded the liberty of bringing in his own players"?? Come on - that's not serious is it?

of the players we lost Benteke is by far the best of the lot. As for the others; Delph possibly though I would say Gana is every bit as good, Vlaar and Cleverley - what have we really lost? And off course he's brought in his own players or have you missed the past few months?