.....,and Martinez turned us down!

[cdbearsfan]

Somebody did start a "will we go down" thread within hours of O'Neill flouncing off. He was derided as hysterical by just about everyone, myself included. In fairness, we shouldn't have even flirted with the drop with the quality of players we had at our disposal.

[passitsideways]

I'm pretty sure we ran out of central midfielders at one point during that season, plus we didn't have a reliable centre forward until we bought Bent (Carew dropped off completely, Gabby was mostly injured, Fonz didn't make the step up, so we were left to play Heskey, who did alright but obviously was severely incapable of finishing moves.)

[rob_bridge]

I'm pretty sure we ran out of central midfielders at one point during that season, plus we didn't have a reliable centre forward until we bought Bent (Carew dropped off completely, Gabby was mostly injured, Fonz didn't make the step up, so we were left to play Heskey, who did alright but obviously was severely incapable of finishing moves.)

I thought he tried playing Gabby on the wing and Young more centrally which didn't work out too well. I get the feeling Houllier would have picked Heskey ahead of Carew in any event.

[passitsideways]

I think K-Mac started the entire Young as no. 10 thing because we were short of strikers, and then we stuck to it because Albrighton and Downing were both in excellent form to start the season, and we wanted to squeeze all three onto the pitch at once. I do remember Gabby making some appearances on the wing at some point later on but he was predictably rubbish at it after his summer of bulking up and his general lack of understanding as to how to play there.

But yeah, from what I remember, we got dumped into it because our back 4 completely lost their form (Dunne and Warnock in particular), then completely lost its protection from the midfield, who then proceeded to get injured forcing us into playing luminaries such as 37 year old Pires and Jonathan Hogg there. Not to mention the entire change our style of play thing.

[paul_e]

I'm pretty sure we ran out of central midfielders at one point during that season, plus we didn't have a reliable centre forward until we bought Bent (Carew dropped off completely, Gabby was mostly injured, Fonz didn't make the step up, so we were left to play Heskey, who did alright but obviously was severely incapable of finishing moves.)

At one point that season we had 14 of the named 25 man squad and the 3 most promising reserves out injured at the same time (late october/early november time.  Take 17 players away from any team in the league and they'd struggle.

[Risso]

Never rated Martinez as a player or manager.

I don't think anybody has ever rated him a player. Unless you were watching Division 3 in the mid-nineties.

I was, Wigan mostly as it happens. He was the best of the 'Three Amigos' and was superb the season Wigan went up in about 97. The night they clinched promotion I saw him and Graeme Jones out in a Wigan nightclub called Pemps. Jones was being a right prick wandering round telling everybody he was worth £5m, but then he had scored 30 odd goals that year so we let him off.

[supertom]

I think K-Mac started the entire Young as no. 10 thing because we were short of strikers, and then we stuck to it because Albrighton and Downing were both in excellent form to start the season, and we wanted to squeeze all three onto the pitch at once. I do remember Gabby making some appearances on the wing at some point later on but he was predictably rubbish at it after his summer of bulking up and his general lack of understanding as to how to play there.

But yeah, from what I remember, we got dumped into it because our back 4 completely lost their form (Dunne and Warnock in particular), then completely lost its protection from the midfield, who then proceeded to get injured forcing us into playing luminaries such as 37 year old Pires and Jonathan Hogg there. Not to mention the entire change our style of play thing.

I recall it was something in O Neills mind during that pre-season. Indeed Young actually started for us as a striker in his first few games, playing off Carew. I would imagine much of what KMAC did was a continuation of what O Neill had already put into place, with perhaps more emphasis on keeping the ball on the deck.

[fbriai]

I've long had my doubts about him and I'm not convinced he knows how to get a team to defend properly. At present, I'm wondering whether last season can be put down to him inheriting a decent team put together by Moyes.

As to whether he turned us down or not, he may well have done, but I file Whelan in the place as Ferguson when it comes to talking about contemporary players and managers. Their perspective was always to improve their position, whether it was Whelan talking up Martinez to get as much compensation for him as possible, or Ferguson sending a letter to Lerner about McLeish, knowing that the more of his clique he had in situ around the league, the easier life was for him.

[PaulWinch again]

I think he's a pretty good manager, who's having a bad year. He also seems like a decent enough guy as well.

[rob_bridge]

I've long had my doubts about him and I'm not convinced he knows how to get a team to defend properly. At present, I'm wondering whether last season can be put down to him inheriting a decent team put together by Moyes.

As to whether he turned us down or not, he may well have done, but I file Whelan in the place as Ferguson when it comes to talking about contemporary players and managers. Their perspective was always to improve their position, whether it was Whelan talking up Martinez to get as much compensation for him as possible, or Ferguson sending a letter to Lerner about McLeish, knowing that the more of his clique he had in situ around the league, the easier life was for him.

You make some good observations. I think the letter to Lerner was post hiring. That in itself though should have been a cue for the alarm bells to start ringing very, very loudly. Refs on side or given ear ache, press on side or banned from conferences / Old Trafford, accolytes still in awe of him in place (other than Hughes) throughout the league to give him an easy ride.

[fbriai]

I've long had my doubts about him and I'm not convinced he knows how to get a team to defend properly. At present, I'm wondering whether last season can be put down to him inheriting a decent team put together by Moyes.

As to whether he turned us down or not, he may well have done, but I file Whelan in the place as Ferguson when it comes to talking about contemporary players and managers. Their perspective was always to improve their position, whether it was Whelan talking up Martinez to get as much compensation for him as possible, or Ferguson sending a letter to Lerner about McLeish, knowing that the more of his clique he had in situ around the league, the easier life was for him.

You make some good observations. I think the letter to Lerner was post hiring. That in itself though should have been a cue for the alarm bells to start ringing very, very loudly. Refs on side or given ear ache, press on side or banned from conferences / Old Trafford, accolytes still in awe of him in place (other than Hughes) throughout the league to give him an easy ride.

I'd long suspected him - Ferguson, that is - of it, but all his talk since he's been retired of how important it was to be 'in control' just kind of confirmed it for me. I've no doubt he preferred to have the likes of Bruce roll up, take a 4-0 drubbing and simper through a post-match interview talking about 'the boss', than the likes of Benitez nit-picking.

Whelan did it to make as much money as possible, but he's not the only one, mind. A cursory think about it brings to mind Barry Fry valuing Jonathan Hunt at £27 million or Ian Holloway talking up the likes of Charlie Adam. It seems to work to some extent as well, as people fall for it often enough.

I'm not convinced Martinez doesn't fall into this category. Only time will tell, I guess.

[not3bad]

I am a bit surprised by Everton's troubles this season but I would point out that Everton were on this cycle of one good season followed by a bad one when Moyes was in charge.  They are merely continuuing in this pattern with Martinez.

[fbriai]

I am a bit surprised by Everton's troubles this season but I would point out that Everton were on this cycle of one good season followed by a bad one when Moyes was in charge.  They are merely continuuing in this pattern with Martinez.

You have to go back some way back to see that translate into league placings though. Here are there league placings over the past few years:

02/03 - 7th
03/04 - 17th
04/05 - 4th
05/06 - 11th
06/07 - 6th
07/08 - 5th
08/09 - 5th
09/10 - 8th
10/11 - 7th
11/12 - 7th
12/13 - 6th
13/14 - 5th

[DeKuip]

I like his approach to the game and how he tries to get his teams to play, but unfortunately the Premier League being what it is we see seasoned managers like Allardyce and Pulis (both also very good at their jobs) being "successful" with their way of doing things.

I know whose brand of football I'd rather watch week in week out and hope he turns it round for the sake of the game and himself.

As for him turning us down - I got the impression Randy Lerner wanted him merely because he'd shown he could do a good job on a low budget at Wigan, rather than for his footballing philosophy (a theory backed up by our subsequent appointment). If Martinez felt that too then I don't blame him for saying no thanks. It wouldn't have worked.

[ciggiesnbeer]

I've long had my doubts about him and I'm not convinced he knows how to get a team to defend properly. At present, I'm wondering whether last season can be put down to him inheriting a decent team put together by Moyes.

As to whether he turned us down or not, he may well have done, but I file Whelan in the place as Ferguson when it comes to talking about contemporary players and managers. Their perspective was always to improve their position, whether it was Whelan talking up Martinez to get as much compensation for him as possible, or Ferguson sending a letter to Lerner about McLeish, knowing that the more of his clique he had in situ around the league, the easier life was for him.

You make some good observations. I think the letter to Lerner was post hiring. That in itself though should have been a cue for the alarm bells to start ringing very, very loudly. Refs on side or given ear ache, press on side or banned from conferences / Old Trafford, accolytes still in awe of him in place (other than Hughes) throughout the league to give him an easy ride.

Agree with both. Ferguson was like that. He sure won a lot of games though. Bastard.