We've not had a Martin O'Neill argument in ages...

[Clampy]

I never said it would be good if it happened again. Just that it actually worked out well for us back in 1987

Like i said, it only worked out well because we came straight back up. Hindsight in a wonderful thing.

[dave.woodhall]

I never said it would be good if it happened again. Just that it actually worked out well for us back in 1987

And pretty disastrously in 1967.

[Mister E]

Agree with all of this - I'd only add that I think the build-up of fan discontent would have had some effect on HDE's decision about when to sell; but I accept that all the other factors you mention were relevant.

... the fact that the mainstream media is so reluctant to provide a platform for proper supporter debate is a big problem.   

Again (worryingly!) I agree

[Clampy]

I might be wrong about this (and I'm sure the older h&v'ers will put me right if so) but didn't Sir Graham say we were that much of a mess that could have gone all the way down?

[Legion]

Words to that effect.

[olaftab]

He didn't say all of that or I don't remember. He said that club had no structure or organisation and needed sorting from top to bottom.

[Legion]

I think he used the word shambles.

[silhillvilla]

He used his nose, he definitely said it all smelt wrong.

[dave.woodhall]

"The whole of the club needs restructuring. The youth policy is not good enough, the scouting system is not good enough, the football team is a shambles and I've come to sort it out."

[Clampy]

"The whole of the club needs restructuring. The youth policy is not good enough, the scouting system is not good enough, the football team is a shambles and I've come to sort it out."

And he fucking did as well.

[silhillvilla]

"The whole of the club needs restructuring. The youth policy is not good enough, the scouting system is not good enough, the football team is a shambles and I've come to sort it out."

We've gone full circle

[edgysatsuma89]

Sunderland.

[supertom]

Well, some of the players were very fit but others palpably were not. Anyway, by training I really don't just mean fitness, and that's the problem, we need to alter how we think as fans. We can't just accept a man whose training methods, according to loads of former players, essentially consisted of fitness and five-a-side. If you look at the successful managers these days, nobody else does that and the results show. By the way, saying that we kept a high tempo for 90 minutes better under MON is just obviously wrong - remember John Terry's interview where he said that everyone knew how to play against us - you just wait for the hour mark and we'll get knackered. That was MON's sustained high tempo for you.

That I'd agree with. We've been a high tempo sort of side for years now. We don't make it look effortless, we don't conserve, and we indeed, John Terry was unfortunately proved right.

Some clubs make football look very easy. They know sometimes you have to spend 10 minutes slowing the game down, keeping the ball and trying to keep something in your tank.
That takes a manager with some nous and forward thinking.
I enjoyed O Neill's football when it worked. But he was outdated. As was McLeish, as is Lambert.

The trouble in changing the footballing culture of a football club is that it can be difficult. Houllier but for signing Bent probably would have taken us down doing it, and with one half step forward in the last couple of months, we took a huge leap back with TSM1.

If we want to be like Southampton or Swansea, the reality is we may have to go down first. I hope not. But forward progression and actually joining the modern game won't happen with the current owner, and definitely not with the current manager.

[ChicagoLion]

I don't think we need to go down to be successful again. We just need a decent manager, which is something we have been lacking for a very long time now.

[silhillvilla]

The fact we only had £7m to spend this summer despite an income of nigh on £100m is down to the legacy MON left us. He bankrupted Celtic too