Other Games 2014-15

[spangley1812]

1 - 1...........Gray, very very poor goalkeeping by Konstantopolis

[Matt Collins]

They're very hirsute aren't they, Brentford?

[spangley1812]

1 - 2 ..........Boro in injury time

[olaftab]

Messi is great but Maradona by winning the WC is unassailable. Next on the list is Zidane as he did  the same with France. Messi can score as many as he likes but he does need to turn up at a WC and  he has had two go's now and "failed".

[DB]

Rubbish. You don't have to win the world cup to be considered the best. It takes 11 players to win it, he can't do it on his own.

[pauliewalnuts]

Rubbish. You don't have to win the world cup to be considered the best. It takes 11 players to win it, he can't do it on his own.

True, but then again, Maradona did a good impression of it.

[Toronto Villa]

Rubbish. You don't have to win the world cup to be considered the best. It takes 11 players to win it, he can't do it on his own.

I imagine some would have different opinion of Maradona also if that game and that incident hadn't taken place in 1986. Also what would people think about him if we had access to his games, goals and highlights like we do Messi today? There simply wasn't the depth of coverage as there is today.

There is no doubt Messi is absolutely sensational but it will always be a legitimate argument as long as Messi doesn't bring a WC to his country. Brazil was such a great opportunity and he wasn't able to elevate his game throughout the tournament as Maradona did in 1986 and to a lesser extent in 1990. And you can certainly make the case that he had around him far greater talent, especially in midfield and attack to help him than Maradona had.

[Sexual Ealing]

Amen to all that, TV.

[Dave]

Rubbish. You don't have to win the world cup to be considered the best. It takes 11 players to win it, he can't do it on his own.

I imagine some would have different opinion of Maradona also if that game and that incident hadn't taken place in 1986. Also what would people think about him if we had access to his games, goals and highlights like we do Messi today? There simply wasn't the depth of coverage as there is today.

There is no doubt Messi is absolutely sensational but it will always be a legitimate argument as long as Messi doesn't bring a WC to his country. Brazil was such a great opportunity and he wasn't able to elevate his game throughout the tournament as Maradona did in 1986 and to a lesser extent in 1990. And you can certainly make the case that he had around him far greater talent, especially in midfield and attack to help him than Maradona had.

Can you clarify why it's so crucial that Messi win the World Cup but it doesn't matter that Maradona didn't win any European Cups? Napoli played in it twice, it's not like he didn't have the opportunity to do so.

If Messi is expected to drag Argentina to World Cup victory just to keep par with Maradona, surely Maradona should be expected to have matched Messi's achievements in other areas, which he failed to do?

And let's say that Higuain didn't miss those two chances in the Final last summer and Argentina had gone on to win - does that somehow make Messi a much better player even though he did nothing differently?

[DB]

Maradonna was a genius like Messi. The 86 incident has not skewed my view if him for his ability. He still is a junky cheating pie eater.

That game the other night was one of the highest quality games with the world's current best players...and Messi stole the show. Nowadays most WC teams are not as good as the top clubs in Europe.

[paul_e]

I think the focus has changed, the world cup was the be all and end all for players 20-30 years ago, I don't think that's the case any more. In that light the 'he hasn't won a world cup' argument becomes a bit shallow.

[Lastfootstamper]

That George Best, he musta been shite, he never played in one, let alone won it.

Daft argument.

[peter w]

Its not just that a player hasn't won a world Cup but more its the measure of when your team needs that extra brilliance to make all the difference on the international stage can the player step up? Its not just about the players you are playing against but can you deal with the pressure of an entire country looking to you to win a World Cup. You are constantly reminded about what the country is expecting and the pressure is immense. That's the big difference between international football and club football even though many club sides would beat most international sides. When the pressure was on Maradona came through. Messi or Ronaldo have ultimately failed to deliver when the pressure was truly on on the biggest stage.

[paul_e]

Its not just that a player hasn't won a world Cup but more its the measure of when your team needs that extra brilliance to make all the difference on the international stage can the player step up? Its not just about the players you are playing against but can you deal with the pressure of an entire country looking to you to win a World Cup. You are constantly reminded about what the country is expecting and the pressure is immense. That's the big difference between international football and club football even though many club sides would beat most international sides. When the pressure was on Maradona came through. Messi or Ronaldo have ultimately failed to deliver when the pressure was truly on on the biggest stage.

but you're still assuming that international football is the biggest stage and I just don't think that's true any more.  I'd say there is just as much pressure and expectation for the champions league final as there is for the world cup final.  For example look at the attitude to England on here I don't think that's a uniquely English trait and it's certainly not solely confined to villa fans or this forum.  I think international tournaments are well watched and enjoyed but in general the game at that level is largely marginalised now because of the over exposure to pointless friendlies and qualifying games against postmen, etc.

I'm not saying it's not important or that it isn't a decent measure of a players ability, I just don't think you can dismiss someone's club achievements because he's not done it in the world cup. On top of that I think the setup of the Argentina side in the last world cup did nothing to make the most of having Messi there whereas in 86 the entire side was built to get Maradona on the ball in the right areas, which make s a big difference.

[PeterWithesShin]

You also have to take into account that there were less teams to beat. No African threat as the African nations were considered a bit of a joke then, even teams like Portugal, Turkey, Greece were considered shite. Remember the disgrace of losing to Portugal in 1986? Sticking 8 past Turkey in a qualifier and no one was surprised. The overall standard of competing nations now is much greater than back then.

Another thing to take into account is how many more games they play now as well, which often leaves players knackered by the time the WC comes around. Messi is 27 and has played 508 club games. Maradona retired at 37 having played 588.

And if it's down to what you've won, then does that make David May a better PL defender than Paul McGrath?