Philippe Senderos

[RussellC]

Losing Okore for the season in the 4th game was a big blow

My fear with this is that we don't really know this. Yes he had a promising pre-season, but then so did Tonev and Helenius.  I worry that Lambert will go into next season putting a lot of faith in an untested, young defender who hardly kicked a ball next year.

All we know for sure is that in the 257 minutes he played for us he looked more than capable of being a very good premier league defender.  It might be a risk to rely on him, but it's a bigger risk to not try and have him waste on the bench and leave having never been given a run of games.  Sometimes you have to just look at a young player and decide to put some faith in them to do the business, Okore, Robinson and Grealish are 3 that I think we should put that faith in over the next 6months (and then Donacien after that).

He looked fairly good in that short time. Nothing more. That's not me being a doom-monger that's me giving a genuinely honest opinion. I also thought that both Clark and Baker looked good at the beginning of the season though. My main concern is that he doesn't look like a good partner for Vlaar to me. Neither particularly like attacking the ball (both preferring to drop off and sweep) and both are more comfortable playing on the right hand side of a pairing.

In regard to the point about having faith in kids, I do agree but think that it can do more harm than good if you try to blood them in a struggling side that lacks experience. I've made the point before, but I honestly think that one of the major differences between Gareth Barry and Ciaran Clark is that Barry was able to learn his trade in a good side with a lot of experienced pros, whilst Clark was forced to shoulder too much responsibility and pressure too early. There's not much between them in terms of footballing ability, but Barry's assured calmness and Clark's panic-stricken lack of composure are surely products of their footballing upbringing?

[brian green]

Excellent post Russ.

[pauliewalnuts]

I don't really think it is possible to form a realistic opinion of a player when he has played less than three whole matches at this level, to be honest - good or bad.

Which is why I would neither write off or acclaim Okore, and is why I also thought Helenius got a lot of unfair stick.

[RussellC]

I don't really think it is possible to form a realistic opinion of a player when he has played less than three whole matches at this level, to be honest - good or bad.

Which is why I would neither write off or acclaim Okore, and is why I also thought Helenius got a lot of unfair stick.

I agree completely, and I guess it's just deciding which is worse - the fear of the unknown (Okore) or the fear of the known (Senderos)!

[Toronto Villa]

I don't really think it is possible to form a realistic opinion of a player when he has played less than three whole matches at this level, to be honest - good or bad.

Which is why I would neither write off or acclaim Okore, and is why I also thought Helenius got a lot of unfair stick.

agree, but he looked bloody good in that game against Chelsea in the CL. You can mask a lot of things and everyone can have great Youtube moments but it wasn't like those highlights were against some no name outfit.

[Pat McMahon]

I don't really think it is possible to form a realistic opinion of a player when he has played less than three whole matches at this level, to be honest - good or bad.

Which is why I would neither write off or acclaim Okore, and is why I also thought Helenius got a lot of unfair stick.

agree, but he looked bloody good in that game against Chelsea in the CL. You can mask a lot of things and everyone can have great Youtube moments but it wasn't like those highlights were against some no name outfit.

Toronto, I agree with your general assessment and think Okore holds a lot of potential for us but the miserable devil's advocate in me could point to plenty of great performances over the years which were not sustained - just off the top of my head Hogg and Bannan v Man U in 2010, Ian Olney for a while in 1989-90, Gareth Williams as a promising defender in the same team, going all the way back to Charlie Young in that wonderful 5-1 drubbing of Liverpool in 1976.

From the first moment I knew Balaban was shite though.

[KevinGage]

Baker had a good game against Chelsea last season.  In fact, even Joe Bennett did. 

Okore is younger than both of those, so he'll still have his ups and downs.  You would get that with his age anyway, but adapting to a different league makes it doubly tough.

[Toronto Villa]

Baker had a good game against Chelsea last season.  In fact, even Joe Bennett did. 

Okore is younger than both of those, so he'll still have his ups and downs.  You would get that with his age anyway, but adapting to a different league makes it doubly tough.

when Baker doesn't have to man mark he's fine. When there are two forwards he's awful and especially if the forward has any speed or mobility. He has little ability to read the game and is quite reactionary.

[brian green]

Didier Six?

[Mister E]

He looked fairly good in that short time. Nothing more. That's not me being a doom-monger that's me giving a genuinely honest opinion. I also thought that both Clark and Baker looked good at the beginning of the season though. My main concern is that he doesn't look like a good partner for Vlaar to me. Neither particularly like attacking the ball (both preferring to drop off and sweep) and both are more comfortable playing on the right hand side of a pairing.

Agree with the point you're making. I'd say that the answer lies in how we line up next season. Like Hodgson at the world cup, if the defenders are clearly not our strongest suit and the FB are better attacking than defending, I'd be playingg three at the back and using the FB as wingbacks. This would actually accommodate the stengths of Okore and Vlaar quite well, but it would mean playing either Clark or Senderos on the left of the three.
In fact, Senderos at left CB with a sweeper might work quite well ...

In regard to the point about having faith in kids ... but Barry's assured calmness and Clark's panic-stricken lack of composure are surely products of their footballing upbringing?

A really good observation and comparison. Clark should, however, come out of the 'panic' zone at some point, hopefully better. Okore shouldn't suffer so much from being 'thrown in at the deep end' because his experience as an international player and one that has had some dcecent European football should get him through that.

[Chris Smith]

Baker had a good game against Chelsea last season.  In fact, even Joe Bennett did. 

Okore is younger than both of those, so he'll still have his ups and downs.  You would get that with his age anyway, but adapting to a different league makes it doubly tough.

when Baker doesn't have to man mark he's fine. When there are two forwards he's awful and especially if the forward has any speed or mobility. He has little ability to read the game and is quite reactionary.

He's fine as long as he isn't asked to pass it with any consistency, he seems to panic on the ball. My brother calls him '50p head' so although he is strong in the air and can win the ball you can never be sure which direction it will go.

[Toronto Villa]

Baker had a good game against Chelsea last season.  In fact, even Joe Bennett did. 

Okore is younger than both of those, so he'll still have his ups and downs.  You would get that with his age anyway, but adapting to a different league makes it doubly tough.

when Baker doesn't have to man mark he's fine. When there are two forwards he's awful and especially if the forward has any speed or mobility. He has little ability to read the game and is quite reactionary.

He's fine as long as he isn't asked to pass it with any consistency, he seems to panic on the ball. My brother calls him '50p head' so although he is strong in the air and can win the ball you can never be sure which direction it will go.

you do wonder how some players make it through all of the levels and obstacles to get to the top level of their profession. Baker is just one example of so many players who over the years defy all logic. It's one thing watching football at League 2 level where some things you just have to accept, but at the top level you have to wonder what the pros in the game see vs us fans. I know it's not the same and there are things that we might not appreciate but our eyes don't always lie.

[silhillvilla]

Don't get all the baker abuse ! Is it vogue to slate him ? He ain't perfect but look at the shit in front of him and either side !
He had a decent run of about 8 games last season where he was really good. Cut the guy some slack.

[Big Dick Edwards]

Don't get all the baker abuse ! Is it vogue to slate him ? He ain't perfect but look at the shit in front of him and either side !
He had a decent run of about 8 games last season where he was really good. Cut the guy some slack.

Agreed. Baker is courageous and strong in the air, and composure will improve with experience/maturity.
The reality these last two seasons was he should have been a bit part player, our fourth centre half. Unfortunately for all concerned, a combination of injuries and our transfer policy have seen him become a first team regular before he was ready.

[pauliewalnuts]

Don't get all the baker abuse ! Is it vogue to slate him ? He ain't perfect but look at the shit in front of him and either side !
He had a decent run of about 8 games last season where he was really good. Cut the guy some slack.

Crikey, I'd never see it as Baker being the one surrounded by shit. He's managed to look consistently the worst player in our back four. He's nothing like good enough, I'm afraid. Neither is Clark, but even he's better than Baker.

He'd get cut more slack if he hadn't spent the best part of two seasons looking dreadful.