The Takeover Thread - Recon Group - NOW WITH NEW POLL

[Phil from the upper holte]

Fans running the club would be a nightmare, the only thing that would have been good is that we wouldn't have hired Mcshit

[ChicagoLion]

I'm probably playing a broken record.  But what about Fan Ownership?

It works for Barcelona, Real Madrid, The Bundesliga and Galatasary and Fenerbache.

Could we get it to work at Aston Villa, with the backing of the AVST as a movement?

No. Not in a million years.

It would be a disaster.  A couple of hundred relatively like minded fans on here can't agree on anything...

Yes we can.

oh no we cant

[OzVilla]

Also can't see 20,000 supporters each putting in anything between the 4k to 8k needed.

[Holte L2]

Also can't see 20,000 supporters each putting in anything between the 4k to 8k needed.

You would have a lot more than 20,000 shareholders to make it work.

[Holte L2]

I'm probably playing a broken record.  But what about Fan Ownership?

It works for Barcelona, Real Madrid, The Bundesliga and Galatasary and Fenerbache.

Could we get it to work at Aston Villa, with the backing of the AVST as a movement?

Even if you had 100,000 fans signed up, we'd have to put a grand in each to be able to compete with Stoke for two or three years. So it's a "no", from me.

Not necessarily. Some section of our support are wealthier than others. Supporters would have the option of buying as many shares as they liked, with the objective of raising capital. We'd also have other sources of income via commercial revenue to invest in the playing squad.
At the end of the day, Doug ran the club for 24 years without putting his own money in and that was before big money TV deals for the most part.
In order to form a board, shareholders would stand for election for various positions. With an election for Chairman taking place every four to five years and if the fans wanted more signings beyond out self generated income levels, it would be up to them to raise the money themselves as we'd own the club and would be accountable.

Talk to the AVST About the shareholding. IIRC, we had around 15,000 shareholders during DBL (the days before Lerner) and the AVST had a full list to a proportion of which it mailshotted the idea of supporting some sort of share-leveraging strategy to get a rep on the board; with little response.
So, in order to work the idea, you'd need to have a shot at estimating the likely real interest in part-ownership. If you assume that there'd probably only be around 5,000 who would put up serious amounts, with maybe another 25,000 putting up nominal amounts, the 5,000 would need to be prepared to put up at least £20k each on average to be even on the starting blocks.
Then, there's the question of whether the club can be not only operationally self-sufficient on a day-to-day basis (which will be a function of what division we're in) but also capable of competing in the real-world environment of the English football set-up: where will player-purchase funds come from, unless we have an academy that is routinely developing players with signficant sell-on value?
Not saying it's a totally crazy idea - and it clearly has been done elsewhere - but the intracies make it tough, and the English set-up complicates it (because the P League has such a high premium from its TV deal).

I have already been speaking to the AVST about the possibility.  I am a member and a volunteer.

It has been discussed. The problem we have at the minute is valuation. Lerner wants £150m which isn't realistic with relegation looming and income levels being hammered with it. if He indicates he's ready to accept a realistic price, and a better option doesn't come forward, then AVST does have plans in place (I don't know to what degree) to offer a buyout to supporters and then an election for a chairman and a board of directors.

[Holte L2]

Real Madrid fan owned?

Real Madrid members have owned and operated the club since its inception, more than 100 years ago. As the favourite in the Lisbon final against rivals Atlético Madrid, and with nine Champions League trophies, the club proves that co-operative ownership can be a real alternative to privately-owned football clubs.

Real is structured as a member-owned co-operative society. Members elect the president, who can stand for re-election, for a four-year mandate. Spanish co-operative clubs like Barcelona and Real Madrid cannot be listed on the stock market and can only raise finance from fans. The 100,000 Real supporters that own the club are not led by a desire to make profit.

The club can also afford to spend spectacular amounts on transfers also because its annual revenues have made it the biggest club in the world. According to Deloitte, Real Madrid’s revenues reached £440m in the 2011/2012 season.

Currently on his fourth term, President Florentino Pérez has throughout years led a campaign of acquiring the best football players in the world, including Luis Figo, Zinedine Zidane, David Beckham, Ricardo Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo. While Pérez’s policy focused on exploiting the club’s marketing potential has attracted some criticism, the club’s ownership structure has been praised by a number of senior football figures, including UEFA President Michel Platini. The French football legend said he “loved” the management structure of Real Madrid and Barcelona because the members remained responsible for the club and their decisions.

[Billy Walker]

I'm probably playing a broken record.  But what about Fan Ownership?

It works for Barcelona, Real Madrid, The Bundesliga and Galatasary and Fenerbache.

Could we get it to work at Aston Villa, with the backing of the AVST as a movement?

No. Not in a million years.

It would be a disaster.  A couple of hundred relatively like minded fans on here can't agree on anything...

Yes we can.

oh no we cant

Count me in.  Maybe try and get the Supporters Trust to get some kind of ball rolling.  Contact high profile fans, put some kind of media pressure on Lerner to at least come out and meet the fans and discuss the potential for a deal.  If Lerner genuinely has the Club at heart the least he could do is listen and try to help us come up with a deal that both he and the supporters could be happy with.

The other question is how many supporters do we have who would be willing to put their hands in their pockets and could we raise the required funds?  I don't know.  The model for this kind of thing needs to be researched and thought through and, again, maybe there are people at the Trust who might want to lead this.  All I can do is speak for myself: I'm a bloke approaching my mid-forties who is desperate to see Villa being the beautiful, successful Birmingham/Midlands institution it should be.  I'm not rich by any means, I don't have loads of disposable income to throw around but I would be willing to put a couple of thousand into this because the way I see it I am now, probably, over half way through my life. Weighing it all up it would give me tremendous satisfaction and pleasure to get the Club moving again, to play a part in the Villa story over the next couple of decades.

 I don't know if I represent any particular demographic or anything but I do think there are a variety and range of people out there who would be prepared to put a whole range of sums into such a model.  Maybe there are businesses out there who would like to get on board too?  The key thing is that Randy needs to be encouraged to, at the very least, open channels of communication to explore such a solution.  Maybe this could be the focus of fan protests: "come out and talk to us Randy, help us find a solution together"?  Yes, it's all pie in the sky stuff and there to be shot down but, then, such is the fate of every idea.

[Billy Walker]

I'm probably playing a broken record.  But what about Fan Ownership?

It works for Barcelona, Real Madrid, The Bundesliga and Galatasary and Fenerbache.

Could we get it to work at Aston Villa, with the backing of the AVST as a movement?

Even if you had 100,000 fans signed up, we'd have to put a grand in each to be able to compete with Stoke for two or three years. So it's a "no", from me.

Not necessarily. Some section of our support are wealthier than others. Supporters would have the option of buying as many shares as they liked, with the objective of raising capital. We'd also have other sources of income via commercial revenue to invest in the playing squad.
At the end of the day, Doug ran the club for 24 years without putting his own money in and that was before big money TV deals for the most part.
In order to form a board, shareholders would stand for election for various positions. With an election for Chairman taking place every four to five years and if the fans wanted more signings beyond out self generated income levels, it would be up to them to raise the money themselves as we'd own the club and would be accountable.

Talk to the AVST About the shareholding. IIRC, we had around 15,000 shareholders during DBL (the days before Lerner) and the AVST had a full list to a proportion of which it mailshotted the idea of supporting some sort of share-leveraging strategy to get a rep on the board; with little response.
So, in order to work the idea, you'd need to have a shot at estimating the likely real interest in part-ownership. If you assume that there'd probably only be around 5,000 who would put up serious amounts, with maybe another 25,000 putting up nominal amounts, the 5,000 would need to be prepared to put up at least £20k each on average to be even on the starting blocks.
Then, there's the question of whether the club can be not only operationally self-sufficient on a day-to-day basis (which will be a function of what division we're in) but also capable of competing in the real-world environment of the English football set-up: where will player-purchase funds come from, unless we have an academy that is routinely developing players with signficant sell-on value?
Not saying it's a totally crazy idea - and it clearly has been done elsewhere - but the intracies make it tough, and the English set-up complicates it (because the P League has such a high premium from its TV deal).

I have already been speaking to the AVST about the possibility.  I am a member and a volunteer.

It has been discussed. The problem we have at the minute is valuation. Lerner wants £150m which isn't realistic with relegation looming and income levels being hammered with it. if He indicates he's ready to accept a realistic price, and a better option doesn't come forward, then AVST does have plans in place (I don't know to what degree) to offer a buyout to supporters and then an election for a chairman and a board of directors.

Excellent.  This idea needs to be  spread on Twitter etc.  At least put pressure on Lerner and Fox to open up proper channels of communication.

[Dante Lavelli]

It'd be interesting to see a proper 'portfolio' pulled together to see how the mechanics would really work.

With Madrid and Barca isn't the electioneering every 4 years a way of generating cash i.e. Perez (or whoever) promises to fund certain transfers in order to 'buy' the shareholder's votes - in return the president gains the kudos and no doubt influence of being the main man at the club.  At a local level this could be very interesting, the downside would be generating the cash to buy a significant % of the club.

[ChicagoLion]

We can't even decide if we are going to boycott a match, drop leaflets from an aeroplane or chuck our scarves on the pitch.
Now we are going to buy the club.

Brilliant.

[Holte L2]

It'd be interesting to see a proper 'portfolio' pulled together to see how the mechanics would really work.

With Madrid and Barca isn't the electioneering every 4 years a way of generating cash i.e. Perez (or whoever) promises to fund certain transfers in order to 'buy' the shareholder's votes - in return the president gains the kudos and no doubt influence of being the main man at the club.  At a local level this could be very interesting, the downside would be generating the cash to buy a significant % of the club.

Yes it is.  For example in 2009, Pérez announced his candidacy for president of Real, given that he was the only candidate able to provide the €57,389,000 guarantee necessary to run for the presidency, Pérez was announced as the new president.

The same demographic would never work at Villa.  But you could elect a new chairman based on other criteria.  I think we would have to rely on massive sponsorships, a huge commercial revenue stream etc and a strict wage structure. But it's a more interesting proposition that what we have currently.

It's easy to say it would never work. But how do we know unless we give it a go?   

[DB]

Real Madrid fan owned?

Real Madrid members have owned and operated the club since its inception, more than 100 years ago. As the favourite in the Lisbon final against rivals Atlético Madrid, and with nine Champions League trophies, the club proves that co-operative ownership can be a real alternative to privately-owned football clubs.

Real is structured as a member-owned co-operative society. Members elect the president, who can stand for re-election, for a four-year mandate. Spanish co-operative clubs like Barcelona and Real Madrid cannot be listed on the stock market and can only raise finance from fans. The 100,000 Real supporters that own the club are not led by a desire to make profit.

The club can also afford to spend spectacular amounts on transfers also because its annual revenues have made it the biggest club in the world. According to Deloitte, Real Madrid’s revenues reached £440m in the 2011/2012 season.

Currently on his fourth term, President Florentino Pérez has throughout years led a campaign of acquiring the best football players in the world, including Luis Figo, Zinedine Zidane, David Beckham, Ricardo Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo. While Pérez’s policy focused on exploiting the club’s marketing potential has attracted some criticism, the club’s ownership structure has been praised by a number of senior football figures, including UEFA President Michel Platini. The French football legend said he “loved” the management structure of Real Madrid and Barcelona because the members remained responsible for the club and their decisions.

Yes, but they wern't successful due to that alone. The training groumd sale  a few years ago for example. But I take your point re fan ownwership, a good model - especially when you compare it to what we have now.

[dave.woodhall]

I remember ten years ago, when a lot of people said that one man shouldn't own 30% of the shares and a fan-owned model was the way forward. Then a billionaire came onto the scene and those same people said that the only way forward was for him to own 100% of the shares. Some of them got quite aggressive, violent even, on the subject.

[LeeB]

There is surely a tipping point somewhere in the future where it becomes viable.

A season like this one in the Championsip, no buyers on the horizon, that scenario could be 12 months away.

[dave.woodhall]

You somehow get the money to buy the shares. You're now the club's owners(s). Where does the "Spend some money" money come from every year?