The Takeover Thread - Recon Group - NOW WITH NEW POLL

[Toronto Villa]

Excellent post Paulie. My personal perspective on the issue is that in Randy's ownership there has occurred a disaster to the club the like of which I have not seen in my time. I refer to the imposition upon the fans that the lowering of expectations is a positive and praiseworthy achievement The tenure of the last two managers has been underpinned by the assumptions that if the gambles (eg cheap young and hungry) do not come off the stature of the club can be diminished proportionately and the holy grail of Stability offered as justification. The big difference to me between Ellis Villa and Lerner Villa is the current acceptance of mediocrity as the most to which we can aspire.

The only people who talk about expectations being lowered are those who use "They've lowered our expectations" as another stick with which to beat the board. To say that supporters accept such a situation because that's what management tell them, implying that they've in some way been hypnotised or manipulated is an enormous insult. I don't know anyone who is happy with the current state of affairs, I don't know anyone who would want us to stay as we are and I don't know anyone who would consider themselves influenced in such a way.

I don't think they have consciously set out to lower our expectations, but I do think that our expectations have been lowered by the dreadful four years we've just had, and by the lack of any signal of anything resembling ambition coming from them.

In fact, I can't speak for anyone else, but my expectations would start to get off the floor if they did a single thing that made me think they were serious about making us competitive again. One single thing. One signal of intent.

Let alone act ambitiously, they don't even talk that way these days.

I think that after the sky's the limit talk (which to be fair came more from us than them) of the early days they've wanted to be top six and have seen that as an achievable goal. Houllier might have done it, they probably saw McLeish as a necessary short-term evil to start the clear-out and believed Lambert would be the man for the long-term Project. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that at some stage towards the end of last season they realised he wasn't the right fit and Randy finally lost heart.     

I think you're right. They really, really wanted Lambert to be the man to turn things around. And going into last season, on the back of how things ended in year 1, it seemed to be on the right track. I don't think anyone saw what the season would become and if there was a straw that would break the camel that was it.

[Toronto Villa]

I think that after the sky's the limit talk (which to be fair came more from us than them) of the early days they've wanted to be top six and have seen that as an achievable goal. Houllier might have done it, they probably saw McLeish as a necessary short-term evil to start the clear-out and believed Lambert would be the man for the long-term Project. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that at some stage towards the end of last season they realised he wasn't the right fit and Randy finally lost heart.     

If they've realised he's not right, why is he still here?

I think you're right, he's lost heart, and I can understand why, but I don't see why that is an excuse for just floating along in a condition of paralysis like we are now.

He's still here for all of the reasons you've been saying it would be nuts to fire him right now. My guess they have made it clear to him that in the event of a takeover that all bets are off. That's why I still believe Keane joining is a short term fix and nothing more.

[dave.woodhall]

I think that after the sky's the limit talk (which to be fair came more from us than them) of the early days they've wanted to be top six and have seen that as an achievable goal. Houllier might have done it, they probably saw McLeish as a necessary short-term evil to start the clear-out and believed Lambert would be the man for the long-term Project. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that at some stage towards the end of last season they realised he wasn't the right fit and Randy finally lost heart.     

If they've realised he's not right, why is he still here?

I think you're right, he's lost heart, and I can understand why, but I don't see why that is an excuse for just floating along in a condition of paralysis like we are now.

You'll not get a decent new manager who might have to work for a new owner next month.

[Jon Crofts]

He will sell for whatever he can get.

I predict we will never hear from or see him again.

Custodian my arse.

Seeing as we haven't heard from him or seen him in about 4 years, will anyone even notice the tattooed ankled dunce was ever here?

Do you really think there's been no improvement in any aspect of the club over the past eight years, or are you just trying to score a cheap point?

I'm not trying to score points.  The aspects that are better are in the main if not in total off the field of play.  Bodymoor Heath most notably, carbon neutral status, catering, stadia. 
Where are we any better off on the field of play compared to 2006? 

No, everything isn't shit, nor has it ever been, there are a few bright spots, but they're getting dimmer.

[dave.woodhall]

He will sell for whatever he can get.

I predict we will never hear from or see him again.

Custodian my arse.

Seeing as we haven't heard from him or seen him in about 4 years, will anyone even notice the tattooed ankled dunce was ever here?

Do you really think there's been no improvement in any aspect of the club over the past eight years, or are you just trying to score a cheap point?

I'm not trying to score points.  The aspects that are better are in the main if not in total off the field of play.  Bodymoor Heath most notably, carbon neutral status, catering, stadia. 
Where are we any better off on the field of play compared to 2006? 

No, everything isn't shit, nor has it ever been, there are a few bright spots, but they're getting dimmer.

There's a massive difference between not being better off on the pitch and having no effect over eight years. We were much, much worse when Doug left than when he arrived but nobody would say we wouldn't notice that he'd been here.

[Jon Crofts]

He will sell for whatever he can get.

I predict we will never hear from or see him again.

Custodian my arse.

Seeing as we haven't heard from him or seen him in about 4 years, will anyone even notice the tattooed ankled dunce was ever here?

Do you really think there's been no improvement in any aspect of the club over the past eight years, or are you just trying to score a cheap point?

I'm not trying to score points.  The aspects that are better are in the main if not in total off the field of play.  Bodymoor Heath most notably, carbon neutral status, catering, stadia. 
Where are we any better off on the field of play compared to 2006? 

No, everything isn't shit, nor has it ever been, there are a few bright spots, but they're getting dimmer.

There's a massive difference between not being better off on the pitch and having no effect over eight years. We were much, much worse when Doug left than when he arrived but nobody would say we wouldn't notice that he'd been here.

Of course not, how could Mr Aston Villa ever let anyone forget anything he ever did, they named a stand after him you know.

[dave.woodhall]

Of course not, how could Mr Aston Villa ever let anyone forget anything he ever did, they named a stand after him you know.

Indeed. "By Doug Ellis, for the benefit of Doug Ellis."

[brian green]

My observation that lowered expectations were viewed as progress did not come to me as nuanced or implied, it was said by Paul Lambert our current manager.  To put such a view is the insult not my outrage at it. I do not believe the fans feel that way, the insult is to assume that they can be manipulated.

[dave.woodhall]

My observation that lowered expectations were viewed as progress did not come to me as nuanced or implied, it was said by Paul Lambert our current manager.  To put such a view is the insult not my outrage at it. I do not believe the fans feel that way, the insult is to assume that they can be manipulated.

In which case you can't blame the board or owner for words said by a manager trying to put a positive spin on his performance.

[peter w]

If we're comparing where we are now to where we were when Randy took over, I think Jon's got a point. Plenty of things might have happened in between, but I'm trying to think how our current situation is much better than when Doug left us.

We could make a list?

It wasn't whether things are better or not on the pitch, which is debatable, it was whether anything has been better at any point since 2006, which it clearly has. Should a new owner take over soon he will have much more to work with than Randy did, so it's wrong to say we'd never know he'd been here.

Absolutely right. And where I don't think we're back where we started, of course it feels like that. It's always worthwhile to remember that the narure of the Premiership has also moved on. The money at the top, and I mean to 4, 5 or 6, is outstripping anything that we're likely to be spending any time soon, probably, even with new owners.

Lerner had a go at a time when there was a gap opening up in the top 4. That O'Neill wasted it when heavily backed is why we're where we are. I'm not making this anti O'Neill thing, but we tried, failed, and rather than watch it possibly go tits up, Lerner decided to tighten up to make us viable again. I reckon he decided to sell after that initial O'Neill period and knew that are debt would not attract anyone but the type of owner that ends up at our friends down the road. Now we're pretty much stable he's openly said I'm out.

Overall? Disappointed that he baled out so early because one more years speculation would have made us better. After O'Neill push the bat out get a top manager, because what we had was exciting, and have a real go at pushing us in for one more season. That he didn't is I thik the most disappointing thing with his reign on the footballing side.

but, on the opposite side, if that extra year had have gone wrong we'd be where we are now but with an even bigger debt which would inevitably mean relegation. People mention the likes of Leeds, Sheff Wed., and I don't think it would get to those levels. I'd have no doubt Lerner would spend money on the best players available to play in a side trying to get out of the Championship - but there's also no guarantee that we would get out. We could easily be an average mid-table Championship team if we're not careful. But that's ignoring the bright sides of the team. In Guzan, Vlaar (mostly), Delph, and Benteke you have a spine. You build around the spine and make the do their best work when its needed. Get the right players around them and we could be half decent.  We're in the balance right now and it's an important summer for us. I won't criticise or praise in either direction. I'll wait and see what happens when the season starts.

[LeeB]

I think for all his faults over the last few years, it's still really, really harsh to criticise the man for coming in from nowhere and spunk long a shedload of cash on trying to make us a force again.
It looks folly in hindsight, but had the oil men not turned up at Citeh we'd have probably pulled it off.

[dave.woodhall]

I'm convinced that the biggest difference between Randy and Doug is that Doug was lucky.

[kippaxvilla2]

On the pitch, things look largely the same.

Off the pitch - nice training ground, nice pub, a decent restaurant, better work with charities. That's largely it.

Those things are better than they used to be, but are they particularly meaningful?

I believe SGT in his first spell was hauled over the coals by Doug for saying that the whole club didn't smell right and was going downhill fast.  Doug corrected him by saying that he accepted the playing side wasn't right but that commercially we were well run.  And actually, for the times he was talking about, I would agree with him.  So therefore, I think the net result of where we started under Randy versus where we finished under Doug aren't dissmilar.  And with far superior TV revenue than ever there was before.

[kippaxvilla2]

He will sell for whatever he can get.

I predict we will never hear from or see him again.

Custodian my arse.

Seeing as we haven't heard from him or seen him in about 4 years, will anyone even notice the tattooed ankled dunce was ever here?

Do you really think there's been no improvement in any aspect of the club over the past eight years, or are you just trying to score a cheap point?

I really have never understood why some people cannot compartmentalise their criticism. If something isn't going well then everything has to be shit. Why not just look at things without a broad brush and say some things at our club are really incredible and very well done, while other things have been disappointing and need improvement? I realise the first team dominates the conversation and sways opinion but that doesn't mean that everything is as bad as that aspect of the club. Randy Lerner/Paul Faulkner deserve criticism for many things, but give them their due where it is deserved. It hasn't all been shit, and even now, not everything is bad at Aston Villa.

I think the key factor is that the things that really matter - to our core function as a football club - have been a pig's ear and have left us with a somewhat feeble squad which is settled into a routine of dodging relegation.

See things like the Joe Cole thing tweeted today about how he's sure the bomb squad players can help us beat relegation.

That sort of thing just drives home how low expectations are at the moment - and that is a direct result of four years of horrible struggle.

Yeah, the charity stuff, the restaurants, the stuff I mentioned in the post above, they're all great, but they are not the things that matter the most - given that we are a professional football club.

If you judge it by the things that do matter, then it's hard to spot many things which have been done well. In those terms, we are back where we started eight years ago.

I also think that the reason people are more critical and completely disillusioned than they ever were under Doug is that they after years and years and years of what was perceived as lack of ambition under said Doug, they finally had a man, in Randy who was going to change all that and we would never have to return to those dark old days.  I sense mainly a feeling of real disappointment and resentment that it simply hasn't turned out to be the case.

[bertlambshank]

You are forgetting the shit Doug caused post 83.