Relegation?

[Malandro]

I certainly don't think Italian football is boring. English clubs are often found out in european competitions because of their naive, almost gun ho attitude.
I was pondering this week why things haven't moved on - all the money in the world and a lot of well respected international managers - and yet Man u/chelsea/arse still get dominated.

Probably down to the thick as pig shit footballers we produce.

How many of the 'pig shit' players at Chelsea are English?

Perhaps Chelsea was a bad example, I do count Terry in that category however

[Chris Smith]

I certainly don't think Italian football is boring. English clubs are often found out in european competitions because of their naive, almost gun ho attitude.
I was pondering this week why things haven't moved on - all the money in the world and a lot of well respected international managers - and yet Man u/chelsea/arse still get dominated.

Probably down to the thick as pig shit footballers we produce.

How many of the 'pig shit' players at Chelsea are English?

Perhaps Chelsea was a bad example, I do count Terry in that category however

Arsenal are an even worse example.

There so many overseas players and coaches in the Premier League that I think that the general point is out dated.

[Mister E]

There is much to learn at this regard.

The other point in Archie's longer post was about building the game from the back; which I agree with, but this means:
- defenders being very comfortable with the ball at their feet, good on positioning and able to deliver the ball where it needs to be. Baker, particularly, is the antithesis of this. Lowton last season looked reasonably good.
- midfielders being dynamic in support of their defence and being able to pick a pass with their first touch when required. KEA, Delph and Westwood require at least one touch to steady themselves and often get caught in possession when teams press hard.
- attackers who create space, playing wide or narrow when it required, and coming off their markers to either lay the ball off first time or roll their marker. Last season, the three were doing this quite well; this season, it has been poor.

All of which means that we are probably short on talent in defence and MF and also require better coaching!

[Archie]

Fully agree with you!

[Ads]

Lambert wants to build from the back. He has a pretty accomplished footballer in Vlaar and also Okore. Alas the later got injured and yet again out 3rd and 4th choice centre halves have played a heck of a lot of football.

[Archie]

It is quite clear that we have two different concepts of building from the back, mate!

[Monty]

It is quite clear that we have two different concepts of building from the back, mate!

As a long-term fan of il calcio italiano, for better or worse, I have to say that what I remember of Serie A's glory years and its mid-table defensive teams could not be more different from us at the moment.

[Ads]

He signs a fast, quick ball playing centre half who is nobled by the footballing Gods. I think it is evident how he wants to play. Vlaar is typically Dutch, his goal at Wigwam with the technique... pure class.

[saunders_heroes]

It is quite clear that we have two different concepts of building from the back, mate!

Hoof!!!

[Monty]

He signs a fast, quick ball playing centre half who is nobled by the footballing Gods. I think it is evident how he wants to play. Vlaar is typically Dutch, his goal at Wigwam with the technique... pure class.

The phrasing you use is particularly amusing to me, because when we signed him I asked a Dutch friend what he's like and he said 'he's not a typical Dutch player.' Now, he still has better technique by miles than your average English centre back and I think Lambert does want to play that way, but I thought your phrasing was uncannily wrong.

I've said over and over again I think he wants us to play good stuff. I just think he doesn't know how to.

[passitsideways]

He signs a fast, quick ball playing centre half who is nobled by the footballing Gods. I think it is evident how he wants to play. Vlaar is typically Dutch, his goal at Wigwam with the technique... pure class.

The phrasing you use is particularly amusing to me, because when we signed him I asked a Dutch friend what he's like and he said 'he's not a typical Dutch player.' Now, he still has better technique by miles than your average English centre back and I think Lambert does want to play that way, but I thought your phrasing was uncannily wrong.

I've said over and over again I think he wants us to play good stuff. I just think he doesn't know how to.

Maybe he can't, but I would say that we should wait until he actually has access to a creative midfielder or two before making a definitive judgement on that.

[Monty]

He signs a fast, quick ball playing centre half who is nobled by the footballing Gods. I think it is evident how he wants to play. Vlaar is typically Dutch, his goal at Wigwam with the technique... pure class.

The phrasing you use is particularly amusing to me, because when we signed him I asked a Dutch friend what he's like and he said 'he's not a typical Dutch player.' Now, he still has better technique by miles than your average English centre back and I think Lambert does want to play that way, but I thought your phrasing was uncannily wrong.

I've said over and over again I think he wants us to play good stuff. I just think he doesn't know how to.

Maybe he can't, but I would say that we should wait until he actually has access to a creative midfielder or two before making a definitive judgement on that.

I don't think that the style he seems to want to play is defined by attacking midfielders. I think it's made or broken by them, but not built on them. It's built on players we already have, Westwood-types, Delph-types, and Lambert has shown no signs of knowing how to get players to move off the ball in a way balanced between improvisation and planned positioning - it's just all free-wheeling chaos.

[passitsideways]

He signs a fast, quick ball playing centre half who is nobled by the footballing Gods. I think it is evident how he wants to play. Vlaar is typically Dutch, his goal at Wigwam with the technique... pure class.

The phrasing you use is particularly amusing to me, because when we signed him I asked a Dutch friend what he's like and he said 'he's not a typical Dutch player.' Now, he still has better technique by miles than your average English centre back and I think Lambert does want to play that way, but I thought your phrasing was uncannily wrong.

I've said over and over again I think he wants us to play good stuff. I just think he doesn't know how to.

Maybe he can't, but I would say that we should wait until he actually has access to a creative midfielder or two before making a definitive judgement on that.

I don't think that the style he seems to want to play is defined by attacking midfielders. I think it's made or broken by them, but not built on them. It's built on players we already have, Westwood-types, Delph-types, and Lambert has shown no signs of knowing how to get players to move off the ball in a way balanced between improvisation and planned positioning - it's just all free-wheeling chaos.

I think we'll agree to disagree on that - I don't think we're too bad, in terms of building out of the back, when we put our minds to it. It's obviously not as well-drilled and fluent as a team coached by Guardiola or Rodgers or even Roberto Martinez do it, but we did it often enough in last season's run-in to think we could do it constantly so long as Lambert resolves to doing so, instead of falling into counterattack/long ball habits.

I'm not ready to concede that our style of play is built on Westwood and Delph types, because that would seem inconsistent with the fact that Hoolahan seems to have been massively important for his Norwich sides, especially in the lower leagues (PFA team of the year in both promotion campaigns, along with Holt). That would suggest that Lambert was successfully able to focus a play style into getting the most out of a no. 10. Obviously that's harder to implement in the PL, but that's also countered by (hopefully) access to attacking midfielders much better than Hoolahan.

Plus, I'm of the belief that it's incredibly difficult to teach a player off-the-ball movement, especially in the final third - I see that as mostly coming naturally. Gabby and Andi have absolutely no clue how to find space, they just really run around aimlessly, so that generally results in Westwood or Delph being forced to either pass it backwards again, or try to hit a difficult pass to Benteke who has been forced to drop deep, and then the attack breaking down. We've looked slightly better whenever Albrighton is on, because at least he stands wide enough so to create an easy passing option out wide, but beyond that, the cupboard is absolutely bare right now.

[Nastylee]

Perhaps the lack of cohesion isn't the fault of Westwood or Delph but the pathetic displays produced by Gabby and Weimann this season and to some extent Benteke. All three were a menace last year with movement and direct, pacy play. This season = rubbish. the third midfield spot has also been an issue as KEA is not consistent enough. Add into this the form of Lowton last year who delivered some excellent balls which again has been missing this year.

We're going to finish somewhere around midtable and haven't really been in the relegation shake up so there is progress compared to recent seasons and it's what many of us predicted in August. I think this summer is key mind as we need to sign 2-3 key players that will elevate the starting XI in terms of quality. I'd be happy with Bertrand, Vlaar, Okore and a firing Lowton as a back four so we need some quality in the middle of the park and a striking dept looks weak with LK and CB not around for the start.

[Ads]

I disagree Monty. Vlaar is a good footballer. He looks like he should be in a motorcycle gang, but can and does regularly beat a man on a forward run, while the two goals he has scored for us are screamers. There may be better Dutch footballers than him, but you can tell the basis of his up bringing is a million miles away from the no nonsense honest JT type laziness bread in the UK.