The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[supertom]

I'm of the belief that more often than not the league table doesn't lie. If you finish 15th you deserved it. Every side has to deal with poor decisions, "luck", injuries etc. We could say we've had horrific luck with injuries. Conversely one could argue that it could be just as much down to poor training methods than luck. Are we increasing the liklihood of injuries with our players? We did O Neill have a fairly favourable record with player injuries for four seasons, whilst subsequent managers have suffered? Houllier had his double training sessions deeming our squad unfit, and then we suffered horrendous injury spell in the middle of his season. The only person I'd count particularly unlucky (if you consider luck a real element of the game) was McLeish who lost Petrov to a leukaemia diagnosis (something horrible that couldn't be accounted for and was unexpected) as well as Dunne and Bent to long term injuries.

There's not been one season where we finished lower than we deserved in the last four years.

We're currently 16th on merit. We'll stay around this mark too I'd imagine and that's because Lambert loses half his games. It's been his only real consistency to lose in or around half his games in charge for us. Winning seems to have decreased marginally too so I suspect 38 points is about the top end of what we'll achieve this season. Short of a miraculous turn in form (which isn't going to happen without some drastic change in training, tactics and possibly signings in January.

Despite signing Cole as a number 10, identifying N'Zogbia as good in the number 10 position, and having Jack Grealish tied down to a long deal, who is also best as a 10, Lambert STILL has the inability to fit a number 10 type player into our side and a reluctance to play a system that would allow someone to take up that position. I'm not sure a drastic change in emphasis and playing style is going to happen anytime soon. He could stay the full four years of his new contract and still not fix a problem he himself identified on day one and has yet to fix, which is our creativity and the midfield balance.

[aev]

Getting the correct numbers in the lottery is a statistical probability, however remote. There is no unseen force governing the trials and tribulations of football teams.

What about a goal going in off a beach ball lobbed in from the crowd?

[paul_e]

I don't want Lambert, I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a long time because I thought I could see what he wanted to do with us, but this season has shown that he hasn't learned anything from the 2 years of struggling and I can't support a manager who refuses to learn from his mistakes.

However I'd rather stick with him than go for someone Pulis or Moyes, not because I don't think they could do better this year but because it pushes us further into the stale dinosaur football that we've been largely stuck with for the 15-20years.

This mirrors my thoughts. we need to be bold - which means we have to do it now, in order to give any changes time to bed in.

Moyes is a proven manager with an impressive CV.

However, I don't know if he is the style of manager we really need.

That's my point really, I don't think Pulis is a terrible manager and I think Moyes is a good manager but I don't think either of them will deliver what needs to happen for us to become the club I want us to be.  I'd be looking at 2 appointments though, a strategic director of some sort who defines how the club builds itself and then a manager who fits that model.  I can't see the first of those happening under Lerner but I do think we can get a manager who will ease us into that process better than Lambert/Pulis/Moyes would.  A manager concentrating on the basics and improving our core skills and making sure all the players are confident on the pitch is the key, which is a very German approach, hence Tuchel would be high on my list.

[Ads]

Getting the correct numbers in the lottery is a statistical probability, however remote. There is no unseen force governing the trials and tribulations of football teams.

What about a goal going in off a beach ball lobbed in from the crowd?

What of it?

[aev]

Getting the correct numbers in the lottery is a statistical probability, however remote. There is no unseen force governing the trials and tribulations of football teams.

What about a goal going in off a beach ball lobbed in from the crowd?

What of it?

You wouldn't class that as bad luck?

[Clark W Griswold]

Well luck, to me anyway, is not an unseen force but a term to describe a situation that could have gone either way, or a number of ways (as you correctly say by chance) and for the recipient, the outcome is positive to that person (good luck) or negative (bad luck). You would say that someone who has won a signifant life changing amount of money on the lottery is fortunate (or lucky) to have done so considering the odds (probability that they would not). Maybe I'm wrong about the definition of luck, but I don't really care :-)

[aev]

Well luck, to me anyway, is not an unseen force but a term to describe a situation that could have gone either way, or a number of ways (as you correctly say by chance) and for the recipient, the outcome is positive to that person (good luck) or negative (bad luck). You would say that someone who has won a signifant life changing amount of money on the lottery is fortunate (or lucky) to have done so considering the odds (probability that they would not). Maybe I'm wrong about the definition of luck, but I don't really care :-)

I'd agree - otherwise we are entering into pedantry.

[nick harper]

His record in the last half season covering this season and last is 14 points from 19 games. We are deteriorating even further both in results and performance to even his first 18 months. I can't believe anyone wants to give him more time.

He is synonymous with undererperformance and defeats and it is draining the life out of everyone. The club is stuck in a malaise that only a change of manager is going to break .Even if he was to halt the slide in the next two or three games you can almost guarantee we'll wade into another depressing run of games - the pattern is well established.

I appreciate those looking for a more progressive type of football more befitting of Aston Villa but thats a giant leap from the dirge we're currently seeing. I'd be more than happy for Moyes to stabilise and take us forward.

[Ads]

Getting the correct numbers in the lottery is a statistical probability, however remote. There is no unseen force governing the trials and tribulations of football teams.

What about a goal going in off a beach ball lobbed in from the crowd?

What of it?

You wouldn't class that as bad luck?

I class it as an hilarious turn of events following one Scousers decision to add another variable into the game.

It had no more to do with a make believe force of luck than it did with an act of God, who some would argue, in different circumstances, are not mutally exclusive.

[Phil from the upper holte]

I'd say we've only survived the last few seasons as the teams below us have been worse, you can't go on like that forever

Man City only won the league last year because the sides below them were worse.

Man City don't have the spectre of relegation hanging over them if they're even a tiny bit worse than they were last season.

And?

The same could have been said to you when you originally brought up Man City.

My comment was show what a daft point he was making. We only won the European Cup because Bayern Munich weren't good enough. The reality was that we were the best side in Europe at the time and we were the 15th best side in England last season.

What the threat of relegation to Man City has to do with it, I am not too sure.

I think to say it was a daft comment is a bit harsh,We have been kept up by teams being worse, the season under Mcshit for example, We stayed up by the skin of our teeth and I still don't know how, it wasn't us getting lots of great results.

Norwich's run in killed them last season I reckon if the fixture list was kinder they would have stayed up at our expense

[aev]

Getting the correct numbers in the lottery is a statistical probability, however remote. There is no unseen force governing the trials and tribulations of football teams.

What about a goal going in off a beach ball lobbed in from the crowd?

What of it?

You wouldn't class that as bad luck?

I class it as an hilarious turn of events following one Scousers decision to add another variable into the game.

It had no more to do with a make believe force of luck than it did with an act of God, who some would argue, in different circumstances, are not mutally exclusive.

I'd certainly agree it was funny.

[dave.woodhall]

I'd say we've only survived the last few seasons as the teams below us have been worse, you can't go on like that forever

Man City only won the league last year because the sides below them were worse.

Man City don't have the spectre of relegation hanging over them if they're even a tiny bit worse than they were last season.

And?

The same could have been said to you when you originally brought up Man City.

My comment was show what a daft point he was making. We only won the European Cup because Bayern Munich weren't good enough. The reality was that we were the best side in Europe at the time and we were the 15th best side in England last season.

What the threat of relegation to Man City has to do with it, I am not too sure.

I think to say it was a daft comment is a bit harsh,We have been kept up by teams being worse, the season under Mcshit for example, We stayed up by the skin of our teeth and I still don't know how, it wasn't us getting lots of great results.

Norwich's run in killed them last season I reckon if the fixture list was kinder they would have stayed up at our expense

They played the same teams we did home and away. The three worst teams went down, just like they do every season.

[Phil from the upper holte]

I'd say we've only survived the last few seasons as the teams below us have been worse, you can't go on like that forever

Man City only won the league last year because the sides below them were worse.

Man City don't have the spectre of relegation hanging over them if they're even a tiny bit worse than they were last season.

And?

The same could have been said to you when you originally brought up Man City.

My comment was show what a daft point he was making. We only won the European Cup because Bayern Munich weren't good enough. The reality was that we were the best side in Europe at the time and we were the 15th best side in England last season.

What the threat of relegation to Man City has to do with it, I am not too sure.

I think to say it was a daft comment is a bit harsh,We have been kept up by teams being worse, the season under Mcshit for example, We stayed up by the skin of our teeth and I still don't know how, it wasn't us getting lots of great results.

Norwich's run in killed them last season I reckon if the fixture list was kinder they would have stayed up at our expense

They played the same teams we did home and away. The three worst teams went down, just like they do every season.

You know exactly what I'm driving at Dave

[dave.woodhall]

No I don't know what you're getting at. If Norwich had got more points earlier they would have stayed up. If we hadn't got more than three other clubs we'd have gone down. I can't see why it is that we're somehow 'lucky' to avoid relegation when the same could be said for every other club outside the bottom three.

[PeterWithesShin]

Of course luck plays a part, imo. Spurs were lucky that Soldado, Chadli and Mason weren't sent off. That the luck was down to incompetence doesn't change it. You can also create your own to a degree. Their winner was luck. But by having a shot heading on target there is always the chance of a lucky deflection. On another day that Baker header will send a freekick that was going in over the bar.

I also believe that overall the league position you finish in is your true one based on a 38 game season. Every team had 38 games for the variables of luck, injuries etc to play a part. If you finish 1st you deserved it and 19 teams were worse than you. If you finish 10th you deserve it, 10 teams were worse. If you finish 16th you deserve it and 4 teams were worse. If you finish bottom you deserve it and you were the worst.