The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[Irish villain]

I'd like a manager who offers more good points than bad. So far Lambert's bad points outweigh the good, comfortably. Whether he can turn this round to parity or positive, remains to be seen. My gut says he'll never quite make it. The trouble is we've not got the people higher up at the club with the judgement to make an inspired choice next time out, if you look at the fella at Soton, who no one had ever heard of for example. I think it takes a good deal of nous and football knowledge at a club to make a punt like that which comes off, but Faulkner and Lerner don't have much footballing nous.

Nor do we have the budget to be ambitious and get a more high profile coach with a track record to suggest he'd more than likely improve things.

So I would guess any subsequent appointment would be someone similar to Lambert who's worked his way up the leagues and has potential, or it'll be a plodder/journeyman with a track record of solid but unspectacular. But even then, managers like that, say Hughes for example, cost a pretty penny. I wonder if that was in part why we chose not to go with him a couple of years back, when at one point it seemed highly likely he was our next manager.

Would that be the couple of years back when Lambert was the overwhelming fans' choice for the job?

He was fans' choice  in 2012 because the previous two appointments were so poor that we ended up going backwards and so needed to adjust our expectations of what kind of man we could attract.

[PeterWithesShin]

He was the fans choice because so many actually wanted him as manager. Lets not rewrite history just because he hasn't been a success yet.

[dave.woodhall]

I'd like a manager who offers more good points than bad. So far Lambert's bad points outweigh the good, comfortably. Whether he can turn this round to parity or positive, remains to be seen. My gut says he'll never quite make it. The trouble is we've not got the people higher up at the club with the judgement to make an inspired choice next time out, if you look at the fella at Soton, who no one had ever heard of for example. I think it takes a good deal of nous and football knowledge at a club to make a punt like that which comes off, but Faulkner and Lerner don't have much footballing nous.

Nor do we have the budget to be ambitious and get a more high profile coach with a track record to suggest he'd more than likely improve things.

So I would guess any subsequent appointment would be someone similar to Lambert who's worked his way up the leagues and has potential, or it'll be a plodder/journeyman with a track record of solid but unspectacular. But even then, managers like that, say Hughes for example, cost a pretty penny. I wonder if that was in part why we chose not to go with him a couple of years back, when at one point it seemed highly likely he was our next manager.

Would that be the couple of years back when Lambert was the overwhelming fans' choice for the job?

He was fans' choice  in 2012 because the previous two appointments were so poor that we ended up going backwards and so needed to adjust our expectations of what kind of man we could attract.

You've got a thing about changed expectations haven't you?

[Monty]

I have yet to hear a truly convincing and compelling argument as to why we should keep him. Essentially it seems to consist in buying Benteke, who has unequivocally proved he's a player of real quality, and a couple of others who might have the ability to fulfil their potential,  a snatched few minutes of excellence here and there over virtually two seasons, and retaining his services  for continuity's sake. IMO that isn't nearly good enough; the summer shopping trip is his last chance to impress.

I have yet to see any sort of coherent argument as to why we should sack him and start the whole process again from scratch, i.e. new man wanting his own players to suit a new system, disgruntled players on the books not contributing etc.

We are not yet two years into a total rebuilding process, these things take time and it would be unrealistic to expect any manager to have got us further than mid table at this point.

Another point to consider is what message does it send to any potential replacement that we are so quick to discard a manager?

Chris - to take your points in reverse order.

Firstly, plenty of  clubs change their manager with far greater ruthlessness and regularity than we do, and it doesn't affect their ability to attract good managers. Indeed, it could be that our board is again demonstrating their well-intentioned naivety by clinging to this notion of personal loyalty so tightly.

Second, your point about the manager needing time. I think it's very fair to say that any manager needs a couple of seasons at least to really get his team together and to allow his groundwork to start bearing fruit in the form of results. However, I really think that in most cases you can tell remarkably quickly what kind of manager you've got on your hands. After two seasons of Lambert we can see all of his tactical limitations very very clearly, and we also know enough about him to know that he's not likely to change into the more visionary manager we need any time soon.

Finally, your best point is the point about upheaval, but even there I think that is unduly cautious and reflects the whole attitude of the club at the moment. We're tiptoeing along and not really doing anything, and what looks like stability is often just a front for stagnation. The style and mentality of the football is already behind the times and sticking with a manager who shows no sign of changing will just lead to us being left even further behind, in my view. It gives me no pleasure to say this, absolutely none, and I'll latch onto any sign of hope which comes our way, but I just don't think he's the man to do what needs to be done at VP.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I have yet to hear a truly convincing and compelling argument as to why we should keep him. Essentially it seems to consist in buying Benteke, who has unequivocally proved he's a player of real quality, and a couple of others who might have the ability to fulfil their potential,  a snatched few minutes of excellence here and there over virtually two seasons, and retaining his services  for continuity's sake. IMO that isn't nearly good enough; the summer shopping trip is his last chance to impress.

I have yet to see any sort of coherent argument as to why we should sack him and start the whole process again from scratch, i.e. new man wanting his own players to suit a new system, disgruntled players on the books not contributing etc.

That may turn out to be a red herring, Chris. Like you, I have no idea what a new manager would want to do with the current squad. One thing we do know is that Randy won't be throwing money at him to rebuild from "scratch", so for me that's a non-starter.

We are not yet two years into a total rebuilding process, these things take time and it would be unrealistic to expect any manager to have got us further than mid table at this point.

Your expectations are obviously a lot lower than mine, Chris. As for this "midtable" achievement, we're a lower half team, even when mathematically top half we're still way behind Newcastle and Southampton. Realistic for me would at least be top of the Crap League (10th and below) by a clear few points and closing in on 8th and 9th.

Another point to consider is what message does it send to any potential replacement that we are so quick to discard a manager?

Considering the pay offs we've made to managers in the last 5 years, I don't think they'd be too concerned. One day we'll get a decent manager and we'll look back over the last 8 years as a huge wasted opportunity, where we for some strange reason allowed ourselves to think we didn't deserve any better.

[olaftab]

He was fans' choice  in 2012 because the previous two appointments were so poor that we ended up going backwards and so needed to adjust our expectations of what kind of man we could attract.

Frankly speaking dear boy that's load of bollocks.

[mr underhill]

yes to appoint two managers who were shite was unfortunate; to appoint a third was sheer carelessness

[Toronto Villa]

yes to appoint two managers who were shite was unfortunate; to appoint a third was sheer carelessness

Oh Mr Underhill you revisonist old dog you...I wish you'd have warned us all about how shit Lambert was in May 2012. It was so careless of you not to have done the right thing and written to the board about what they were about to do.

[Irish villain]

I'd like a manager who offers more good points than bad. So far Lambert's bad points outweigh the good, comfortably. Whether he can turn this round to parity or positive, remains to be seen. My gut says he'll never quite make it. The trouble is we've not got the people higher up at the club with the judgement to make an inspired choice next time out, if you look at the fella at Soton, who no one had ever heard of for example. I think it takes a good deal of nous and football knowledge at a club to make a punt like that which comes off, but Faulkner and Lerner don't have much footballing nous.

Nor do we have the budget to be ambitious and get a more high profile coach with a track record to suggest he'd more than likely improve things.

So I would guess any subsequent appointment would be someone similar to Lambert who's worked his way up the leagues and has potential, or it'll be a plodder/journeyman with a track record of solid but unspectacular. But even then, managers like that, say Hughes for example, cost a pretty penny. I wonder if that was in part why we chose not to go with him a couple of years back, when at one point it seemed highly likely he was our next manager.

Would that be the couple of years back when Lambert was the overwhelming fans' choice for the job?

He was fans' choice  in 2012 because the previous two appointments were so poor that we ended up going backwards and so needed to adjust our expectations of what kind of man we could attract.

You've got a thing about changed expectations haven't you?

I do, steadily over the past 24 months or so.

[dave.woodhall]

Good job no-one's have then.

[rob_bridge]

He was the fans choice because so many actually wanted him as manager. Lets not rewrite history just because he hasn't been a success yet.

He was. Most of us wanted a bright new manager after the previous 3 who were nothing of the sort. There was him, Martinez, Rodgers and the Wildcard OGS. Most were content with him though

I am still bemused with the flirtation with OGS, especially after the previous open scar of a Fergie Accolyte.

[dave.woodhall]

He was the fans choice because so many actually wanted him as manager. Lets not rewrite history just because he hasn't been a success yet.

He was. Most of us wanted a bright new manager after the previous 3 who were nothing of the sort. There was him, Martinez, Rodgers and the Wildcard OGS. Most were content with him though

I am still bemused with the flirtation with OGS, especially after the previous open scar of a Fergie Accolyte.

He was something different in a field that wasn't exactly glamorous.

[IAmTheOneIanOlney]

I wanted Lambert and, despite some serious wobbles, I still do. I remember his Norwich side going to United and playing out-and-out attacking football and wished we had a manager that would do that. I think we do, but it's going to take time and a lot of patience, by the looks of things.

[rob_bridge]

He was the fans choice because so many actually wanted him as manager. Lets not rewrite history just because he hasn't been a success yet.

He was. Most of us wanted a bright new manager after the previous 3 who were nothing of the sort. There was him, Martinez, Rodgers and the Wildcard OGS. Most were content with him though

I am still bemused with the flirtation with OGS, especially after the previous open scar of a Fergie Accolyte.

He was something different in a field that wasn't exactly glamorous.

He was - still a bit bemusing though. The private jet again.

By the way good write up in WSC - read it yesterday.

[Monty]

He was the fans choice because so many actually wanted him as manager. Lets not rewrite history just because he hasn't been a success yet.

He was. Most of us wanted a bright new manager after the previous 3 who were nothing of the sort. There was him, Martinez, Rodgers and the Wildcard OGS. Most were content with him though

I am still bemused with the flirtation with OGS, especially after the previous open scar of a Fergie Accolyte.

He was something different in a field that wasn't exactly glamorous.

Very true. Don't forget that we weren't likely to get Martinez, as Liverpool were after him with Rodgers, apparently, out of the picture, so if he was going to go anywhere it would be to them and not us. Between Lambert and OGS, OGS looked the more glamorous, and I have to say that I was thoroughly unconvinced by Lambert and that my opinion of him has actually improved in many ways.