The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[Chinchilla Bathhouse]

We're not a Wigan or a Norwich, or the Tesco Bags. We're Aston Villa.

See, this is something I read on here all the time but that I find really annoying and unhelpful.  We give enough stick to Spurs and Newcastle fans, for example, for thinking that they're some massive club who have a divine right to success, we mock them mercilessly for being so up themselves, and then we do exactly the same thing.  We're Aston Villa.  So what?  We're Aston Villa so we should be in the top six?  We're Aston Villa so we can't be relegated?  It's meaningless on its own.  I know what Villa means to me, I know our history inside out and I'm as proud of my club as anyone, but simply being Aston Villa has no impact on our present situation, form or points tally.  There's plenty to debate regarding these things, lots of constructive comment and criticism warranted, but the frequency with which posters will simply turn to the "We're not Wigan, we're not Norwich, we're Villa" argument irritates me.
 
   

[pauliewalnuts]

It has no bearing on the points tally we have at the moment - or at any single point in time - but where it does have a bearing is in our hopes and (and I know this word can be misconstrued, but I am going to use it anyway) expectactions.

I dont think I've seen anyone on here even imply we have a divine right to success, not for a long time.

I think there's a very, very big difference between our definition of "success" and where we've been the last few years, in any case. Which is probably where the "we're Aston Villa" thing comes in.

[Concrete John]

But our level of success should be viewed based upon the team we put out and the resources available, not what we've been used to in the past. 

Ask yourself honestly:- if another club had narrowly avoided relegation one year, then changed the manager and asked him to cut the wage bill and work with a load of PL rookies, which he did and kept them up, then was looking more like a mid table side the following season, despite having no great increase in funds, and the fans of that club were moaning and wanting him sacked, what would we be saying about them?

[pauliewalnuts]

But our level of success should be viewed based upon the team we put out and the resources available, not what we've been used to in the past. 

Ask yourself honestly:- if another club had narrowly avoided relegation one year, then changed the manager and asked him to cut the wage bill and work with a load of PL rookies, which he did and kept them up, then was looking more like a mid table side the following season, despite having no great increase in funds, and the fans of that club were moaning and wanting him sacked, what would we be saying about them?

You can't just divorce the club in one particular season from the previous ones, though, can you?

It's like saying "Ask yourself this, if you were talking about a club which had just lost a manager who had been in place for ages, but had then left, but they're seventh and still in the Champions League, you would say that was pretty good, wouldn't you?" when you're ignoring the fact the club is Man United.

If you totally divorce the importance of what has happened in the past in assessing how we react to the present, then you might as well lump us in with the likes of Wigan (prior to relegation).

What's the difference?  Load of cheap young players, players from selling leagues, strict wage bill, etc etc etc.

What makes us any different from them, by that definition?

The perception of the (relatively recent) past has a huge impact on the present. It doesn't change how the players play, it doesn't turn them into world beaters, but it has an enormous effect on how the fans perceive the club.

[Chinchilla Bathhouse]

You're right Paulie, it is all about expectations, and I do think some people need to readjust theirs at the moment for the sake of their sanity, or at least to save them an ulcer. 

[Concrete John]

It's about expectation levels.  In the Man Utd case, the new man coming in inherited the defending champions and kept all the best players.  Given that, I'd say the fans rightly expect to be higher than 7th, but that's based upon the resources available and not who they are as a club.

The relatively recent past you refer to has no bearing on us right now as the players that achieved that have left and quite frankly inferior ones brought in.

[ChicagoLion]

You're right Paulie, it is all about expectations, and I do think some people need to readjust theirs at the moment for the sake of their sanity, or at least to save them an ulcer.

I think most of us just don't want to think like that. You are right though, based on events over the last 3 years we should grasp the reality of Mid Table mediocrity as being the limit of our ambition.

[Toronto Villa]

You're right Paulie, it is all about expectations, and I do think some people need to readjust theirs at the moment for the sake of their sanity, or at least to save them an ulcer.

I think most of us just don't want to think like that. You are right though, based on events over the last 3 years we should grasp the reality of Mid Table mediocrity as being the limit of our ambition.

I would replace the word limit with extent and add "at the moment" at the end of the sentence. I don't think don't think for one second this where we aspire to be for eternity.

[supertom]

It's not about a divine right to success. Would finishing comfortably top half be deemed all that great a success? But priorities are different for many clubs, be it those running it, or the fans. A club like Wigan were cock-a-hoop about being a Premier League club. They came from the bottom division, all the way to the top and stayed for 7 years, yet each year, survival was still good enough for Whelan and most fans, just to be there.

We've had our dark days but for nearly 150 years as a club we've spent well over 90% of that time in the top division. That gives us a different viewpoint and a different expectation. We're not new to the top flight. We don't merrily appear every few years in it and try and grab a few years. We're not outstaying our welcome, punching above our weight, like Stoke (and indeed Wigan before they finally dropped). How pathetic would it be for a club like this to be in a position like Leeds, or even Wednesday or Forest? Their all bigger than a lot of clubs currently in the top flight and more historically successful. To see us scrapping around in the Championship wouldn't be nice, particularly in modern football as everything now revolves around the top flight, more so than it did when we last were outside of it.

I'm not gonna say we have a divine right to win trophies, or finish in Europe every season. Of course we don't. However the board and the fans for the club really should be expecting not be battling relegation every season. Arsenal, Spurs, Utd, Liverpool, Everton fans wouldn't have it. We've never dropped out of the Premier League but in the last two seasons we've come about as close as we ever have. I stand firmly by the fact that this is not good enough for Villa.

Obviously though the Prem is hard and you get what you deserve. If you don't deserve to stay up you go down. Our mentality in recent years across the board has been very disappointing.

And yes, I'll be enduring an Ulcer, but what the hell.

[Ads]

The closest we ever came from dropping out of the Premier League was in Little's first season (or half a season) where we took it to the last day at Carrow Road before securing survival. We then finished 4th the season after, won a trophy and got to the FA Cup semi-final. All on the back of the manager being allowed to bring in a handful of additional quality players to supplement those he had bought previously.

Things change in football, often very quickly.

[Concrete John]

It's not about a divine right to success. Would finishing comfortably top half be deemed all that great a success? But priorities are different for many clubs, be it those running it, or the fans. A club like Wigan were cock-a-hoop about being a Premier League club. They came from the bottom division, all the way to the top and stayed for 7 years, yet each year, survival was still good enough for Whelan and most fans, just to be there.

We've had our dark days but for nearly 150 years as a club we've spent well over 90% of that time in the top division. That gives us a different viewpoint and a different expectation. We're not new to the top flight. We don't merrily appear every few years in it and try and grab a few years. We're not outstaying our welcome, punching above our weight, like Stoke (and indeed Wigan before they finally dropped). How pathetic would it be for a club like this to be in a position like Leeds, or even Wednesday or Forest? Their all bigger than a lot of clubs currently in the top flight and more historically successful. To see us scrapping around in the Championship wouldn't be nice, particularly in modern football as everything now revolves around the top flight, more so than it did when we last were outside of it.

I'm not gonna say we have a divine right to win trophies, or finish in Europe every season. Of course we don't. However the board and the fans for the club really should be expecting not be battling relegation every season. Arsenal, Spurs, Utd, Liverpool, Everton fans wouldn't have it. We've never dropped out of the Premier League but in the last two seasons we've come about as close as we ever have. I stand firmly by the fact that this is not good enough for Villa.

Obviously though the Prem is hard and you get what you deserve. If you don't deserve to stay up you go down. Our mentality in recent years across the board has been very disappointing.

And yes, I'll be enduring an Ulcer, but what the hell.

I don't disagree with anything you've said there, but I do defend Lambert when it's used as a stick to beat him with.  The "We're Aston Villa and this isn't good enough!" argument makes no sense to me as it measures what we're seeing this season against our history, not on what's in the squad and where we are financially right now.

[pauliewalnuts]

It's about expectation levels.  In the Man Utd case, the new man coming in inherited the defending champions and kept all the best players.  Given that, I'd say the fans rightly expect to be higher than 7th, but that's based upon the resources available and not who they are as a club.

The relatively recent past you refer to has no bearing on us right now as the players that achieved that have left and quite frankly inferior ones brought in.

That is my point, though.

It has no effect on the team, but it has a huge effect on the fans.

The team at any one point is almost entirely a bunch of over-paid young men with no natural affiliation to Aston Villa, passing through. In many ways, it is the flip side of having a bomb squad - we treat them like assets to use or reject as suits us, they treat us as an employer. It's just the way football is.

The fans, though, are there year in, year out, and their expectations will be set at a level influenced not just by what is happening now, but also by what has happened in seasons gone by. Those of us old enough will remember winning the league. Those younger will recall finishing 6th as an achievement.

That's the difference between us and the likes of Hull City or Cardiff.

I'd also disagree strongly re Man United's situation and how their fans react to it - it is influenced by far more than the squad they have. It's also a shock to the system after years of almost uninterrupted success to find themselves where they are at the moment.

[LeeB]

It's about expectation levels.  In the Man Utd case, the new man coming in inherited the defending champions and kept all the best players.  Given that, I'd say the fans rightly expect to be higher than 7th, but that's based upon the resources available and not who they are as a club.

The relatively recent past you refer to has no bearing on us right now as the players that achieved that have left and quite frankly inferior ones brought in.

That is my point, though.

It has no effect on the team, but it has a huge effect on the fans.

The team at any one point is almost entirely a bunch of over-paid young men with no natural affiliation to Aston Villa, passing through. In many ways, it is the flip side of having a bomb squad - we treat them like assets to use or reject as suits us, they treat us as an employer. It's just the way football is.

The fans, though, are there year in, year out, and their expectations will be set at a level influenced not just by what is happening now, but also by what has happened in seasons gone by. Those of us old enough will remember winning the league. Those younger will recall finishing 6th as an achievement.

That's the difference between us and the likes of Hull City or Cardiff.

I'd also disagree strongly re Man United's situation and how their fans react to it - it is influenced by far more than the squad they have. It's also a shock to the system after years of almost uninterrupted success to find themselves where they are at the moment.

Whatever you said there was forgotten as soon I read that last sentence, and a warm glow and moronic grin spread across my face.

[Concrete John]

Yes, there is certainly a sense of entitlement amongst Man Utd fans and most of their moaning will be along those lines.  I'm just trying to view it in the same way I view the present position with Villa, which is to try and set expectation levels on things that actually effect us on the pitch.

The subject of this thread is Lambert's new contract.  Some think he should get it, some want him sacked today, with my own view being 'not yet'.  But when evaluating whether he deserves it or not, we should be judging his performance based upon the resources avilable to him and not on past glories of the club.   

[pauliewalnuts]

I think part of the problem for Lambert isn't so much that his achievements don't live up to the past glories of the club, so much as the fact that in some ways, they don't really live up to his first season here.