The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[Jimbo]

I know you stand by this lack of patience theory, Motbert, but as I see it, it's a lack of comfort, not patience, that hampers our game. That, along with a distinct lack of intelligence, typifies the way we go about playing the game. We frequently plump for the brainless option when even the reasonably sensible ones seem far beyond our reach.

[Monty]

I think they're part of the same thing. Impatient people are rarely comfortable. It's evident that they can't possibly train in a way aiming towards a style giving every player on the ball two options all over the pitch, which has been a standard, a total basic for nearly two decades at the top level of the game. They're game is built on getting the ball forward quickly, which is an impatience that leads to our discomfort when we try and pass the ball. I don't say that they're happy and full of comfort, but I do think that the impatient tactics lead to that discomfort and brainlessness.

[Jimbo]

I'm not so sure. I've seem them patiently pass it back and forth in their own half but then hoof it forward because of a general lack of comfort on the ball when under pressure from the opposition, and a distinct lack of ideas about how to open up a defence. Generally, our players don't like having the ball, not simply because they don't know what to do with it, but also because it absolves them of responsibility when it invariably goes tits up.

I think if we could play the whole 90 minutes making clearances and nicking the game on the break, then that's absolutely what we'd be happy to do. Unfortunately, football doesn't work like that, which is why we're frequently dire, not least at home.

[Chris Smith]

I think that's a little harsh, Jimbo. I think we usually start off trying to play the 'right way' but when it doesn't pay off and the crowd become impatient a number of players revert to the easy option and the performance deteriorates. The same then happens again directly after the half time break.

[Monty]

There's a lot of truth in that Chris. I think the players also, as discussed above, take their emotional cue from the manager as well as the crowd, and that impatience is somewhat endemic in the style we've trained for. I think there is a gap between what we ostensibly want to do and what we're set up to do, so we start trying to play the right way but we're ultimately not set up for that, so revert to type. Wanting to implement and able to implement are separate things.

[PeterWithesShin]

While I think that overall we as fans at matches have been fantastic considering the last few years, I have noticed a number of times when we are passing it around at the back or deep midfield that within a few passes you can hear the moans and a number fans urging the team to get it forward. Cue a lump forward and more moans. I do think we influence the players more than we realise at times.

[Monty]

I think that just shows up the stylistic vacuum in the side at the moment. If they can be so easily influenced by a few groans from the Holte on the one hand or fifteen minutes of 'we go again' at halftime then there's a clear lack of coherence in the game plan at the moment.

[PeterWithesShin]

It's not a few though, for it to be so audible it is 1000s doing it.

[Monty]

Even so, they have to have more strength in their convictions. Clearly there's no real plan in place to stick to because if there were then the whims of the crowd at any one moment wouldn't make a difference to them.

[Stu]

Even if it is true that loads of fans are impatient, the team haven't given the fans much to cheer about either; successes are few and far between.

Either we accept that we're not very good and put up with it, or we don't.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Lambert should be given the opportunity to see through a plan. It may or may not succeed but what you can bet the house on is that if we change managers again the new bloke will have different ideas, want different players and we'll be starting the whole process from scratch again. After the shambles of recent years, that is the last thing the club needs.

I know you have a fear of change, Chris, going back to DOL but change can be a good thing, it's about the continuity of the plan not starting it from scratch. Hopefully the new bloke will have new ideas, at least as far as the football be play but will be able to develop the players to reaching their potential through intelligent training and tactics rather than relying purely on hard work. We gave MON all the goodwill, time and money and he achieved the square root of fuck all in footballing terms. It was no surprise that his squad collapsed under Houllier as most of them had the football skills trained out of them.

If you argued that you had little faith in Lerner/Faulkner finding the right replacement, I could see your point but to defend keeping Lambert because you're scared of change and maybe given time, he might get it right, something even you don't seem convinced with, is a very poor excuse for keeping him. We've got some relatively easy games, especially at home between now and the end of the season. Let's hope he proves he's worth his existing contract, never mind a new one.

[brian green]

There are two schools of "get the ball forward" supporters.   Yes there are those who want it wellied to a target man but there are also those, of whom I am a paid up member who want the passing to build to pressure on the opposition goal.   Passing side to side without an out ball - as often as not caused by lack of movement by those off the ball - leaves  the opposition the opportunity to harass the midfield and the defence into errors and lost possession.   The teams which play the passing game best are those who can run at and turn defenders.   Watch Ribery, watch Robben, watch Lichtsteiner (sp?).   That is why we look so much more threatening when Marc comes on.   He gives an option by running at the opposition and getting behind them.   Say what you like about BB (a very imperfect player IMO) but at least he used to try to make the killer pass.

[Chris Smith]

Even so, they have to have more strength in their convictions. Clearly there's no real plan in place to stick to because if there were then the whims of the crowd at any one moment wouldn't make a difference to them.

It's not that clear cut as it isn't all players who take the easy option. Delph, for example, plays the same game, as do Gabby and Vlaar (when he's fit).

As PWS says you can plot it against the crowd reaction, as the groans get louder the less confident players lose their nerve. They'll have to get over it if they want to continue to play at this level.

[Monty]

I think that our problem, Brian, is actually more geared towards the latter than the former complaint. We lack width, but we do try and make a Big Pass too quickly regardless. Generally speaking I side with those in the crowd you hear shouting 'Move! Just fucking MOVE!', because we're so noticeably heavy-footed and stationary when we have the ball, whatever the system.

Chris, I agree, but a game plan should be one which enables the less natural players to help out in a coherent style. Relying on the odd player here and there is as much relying on luck as the old Hughesish POMO methodology or hoping the opposition bugger up their tactics. Absolutely agree that the players should broaden their shoulders, but I don't think they're helped out by the management and their lack of tactical conviction.

[PeterWithesShin]

It's easier said than done to say the players need to ignore the crowd. These are mainly young and pretty inexperienced players, confidence etc can be brittle. And i'm also not criticising the crowd, just saying how we, as a whole at a match not as individual fans, can almost be contradictory and that it could well effect the players.

Doesn't excuse the Guzan hoof mind.