Der Hammer

[Dave Cooper please]

About the church thing - does anyone who's talking about their attitudes towards homesexuality actually go to church?

I do and as an example when the gay marriage debate was going on, our parish priest spoke about it to the congregation.  The basic message, which is effectively the company line passed down, is that the there is no issue with gay people and they welcome them into the church.

I should have said that I am aware that most churches welcome gay people.
The problem I have is that they never go out of their way to tell people! Church leaders allow bigots to spout hatred in the name of religion and rarely do you hear any of them saying how they disagree.

Church leaders could do a heck of a lot to move this debate forward, but they won't.

[Concrete John]

It's not 'the church' so much as religion. Different religions have varying attitudes, but the malign influence of the preachings of bigoted clergy has obviously been felt.

True and I'm only speaking from the perspective of the Catholic faith, but having been raised as a one and now being 38, I can honestly say I've never heard a priest, either privately or publicly, say anything homophobic.

My point being that are we assuming that the church is homophobic or actually speaking from experience or knowledge of something either read or seen?  Other than quoting passages of the bible, of course.  To me it's like going back to the 70s or 80s and someone saying "All football fans are hooligans" without ever having actually gone to a game.

The Bible is, as you allude to, a problem. I wasn't raised religious but I went to church schools with services twice a week, and I can confirm that nothing homophobic was said. However, two caveats: firstly, homophobic stuff hasn' t been preached against openly to any great extent in this country for a very long time and not out of ecumenicism, but because 'we don't talk about those sorts of things'; secondly, there are places in the world where many religions (and I'm sorry to say, despite the new pontiff, your church as well) have a really poisonous influence on the lives of local homosexual populations, whose lives are made a misery by the faithful.

Yes, this does happen.  To me, It's an example of what Plumbutt mentioned - people using religion as an excuse for their own bigotry.

[Monty]

Oh of course. It's also bigots using a bully pulpit to infect the minds of the poor and under-educated who have never met a gay person in their life and would probably change their minds if they did.

[Concrete John]

About the church thing - does anyone who's talking about their attitudes towards homesexuality actually go to church?

I do and as an example when the gay marriage debate was going on, our parish priest spoke about it to the congregation.  The basic message, which is effectively the company line passed down, is that the there is no issue with gay people and they welcome them into the church.

I should have said that I am aware that most churches welcome gay people.
The problem I have is that they never go out of their way to tell people! Church leaders allow bigots to spout hatred in the name of religion and rarely do you hear any of them saying how they disagree.

Church leaders could do a heck of a lot to move this debate forward, but they won't.

There are quite a few subjects they don't touch on and skirt around, but yes, their actual attitude towards gay people could be better publicised instead of being swallowed up in the general 'God welcomes all' mantra.

[purpletrousers]

The thing that saddened me the most listening to him speak was that his Brummie accent has gone. Traitor.

Sorry. seems I'm the only one still talking about Tommy. As you were.

Shall we ask our Tommy if we are off topic?

"I'm coming out about my homosexuality because I want to move the discussion about homosexuality among professional sportspeople forwards"

But yeah, a shame tis gone :/

And leaving out religion and politics??? We've done this to death on other threads, bizarre ideas around how anti-racism isn't political, Villa opposing fascism in Nazi Germany, we were of course we were founded by Christians, should we ban discussion of these parts of our history?

So anyway, on with the debate a former much loved Villa player has deliberately stimulated...

We are a Christian founded club, yet, I don't know how a "traditional" Christian approach *isn't* hypocritical or homophobic. To say you are welcome as long as you don't express your sexuality in an appropriate way is hypocritical for me.

I can imagine there could be a non-hypocritical answer to that, e.g. trying to be not hateful to a pedophile whilst abhoring expression of that, but for me the Church is deeply hypocritical on this one, you just *can't* reconcile parts of the bible. I've met practicing gay Christian ministers who are just left to operate on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis. In fact i know some hilarious stories from gay friends of our clergy's activity but that's not for here!

Thanks to whoever it was who pointed out that not all religions are homophobic.

I'm being ordained into a Buddhist Order this year. I will actually miss the end of our season and the entire world cup (saves watching England bomb out) but can take in the Barca derby maybe before a 4month retreat in Spain and will come back with a 'funny' name (!).

I wasn't looking for a religion when I started mediating years ago, but would never have get involved with a spiritual tradition that didn't allow natural morality (working out what is right for ourselves based on sound principles rather than rules) rather than going along with some conventional morality and bizarre rules.

I've always tried to think for myself even when it mean being accused of being gay at school for opposing an "all gays should be shot" comment...

[horseroad]

the gf may have been a ts?
or a cd?
apparantly hes been offered a spot on an HBO series
about pillow biters in san francisco
in the report the rep of some agency applauding the news  was named S Dick
i kid you not

[glasses]

My sides are splitting.

[dave.woodhall]

Is it school holidays already?

[saunders_heroes]

the gf may have been a ts?
or a cd?
apparantly hes been offered a spot on an HBO series
about pillow biters in san francisco
in the report the rep of some agency applauding the news  was named S Dick
i kid you not

Is that some kind of poem?

[glasses]

Shall we have a book on what team the troll supports?

[purpletrousers]

It's refreshing to read the free thinking that goes on here, including some people being given the space to be challenged and change.

How does an "Ex-Villa manager in prison for being gay" headline grab you?

I've been getting sensible views from contacts in Uganda, but a journalist there has let me know about their ex-national coach which has shocked me, a little research and it seems he used to manage SC Villa in Kampala too, as most know they are named after us...

The revolting Red Pepper "newspaper" handled it with it's usual standards i see. I'll leave this link unshortended :O http://www.redpepper.co.ug/sodomy-kingpin-mubiru-charged/

back to our Tommy, a nice Guardian piece here includes a few good links eg the OS interview after his retirement, and about his support of S African HIV infected kids eg the trailer to "Thomas Hitzlsperger und die Township-Kinder" film (features his then gf i presume?)

[Chris Jameson]

the gf may have been a ts?
or a cd?
apparantly hes been offered a spot on an HBO series
about pillow biters in san francisco
in the report the rep of some agency applauding the news  was named S Dick
i kid you not

I understood about 3 words of that. 'I' was almost spelt correctly, fucking well done.

[Monty]

the gf may have been a ts?
or a cd?
apparantly hes been offered a spot on an HBO series
about pillow biters in san francisco
in the report the rep of some agency applauding the news  was named S Dick
i kid you not

Is that some kind of poem?

Indeed. I've never seen vers libre from a total moron before. Intriguing.

[Concrete John]

Okay, I'm just back from my Friday afternoon beer, so is everyone reading what I'm reading or did I have one too many?

[cdbearsfan]

the gf may have been a ts?
or a cd?
apparantly hes been offered a spot on an HBO series
about pillow biters in san francisco
in the report the rep of some agency applauding the news  was named S Dick
i kid you not

I assume this is meant to be offensive but it is so badly written I can't be sure.

Your team in administration yet?