Delph for England

[Mister E]

I thought Phil Jones did ok considering Fergie did everything he could to turn a promising central defender into a utility player, made a couple of poor passes but generally defended well and could easily have scored with the header in the first half, not brilliant but more than decent for me.

I agree he did ok. A McGrath incarnate he was not

The jury is still out on Jones and he needs to be playing CB week in week out at club level if he's going to improve.  I thought Gary Cahill was very good though and really should be captaining the side.     

I agree completely that playing as a centre back week in week out is essential for him, I said that in my initial comment, he's done the same with Cleverley, Welbeck and Smalling as well.  All of them looked very promising as kids but have stalled badly after he's tried to turn them into something they're not.

Exactly the conversation I was having yesterday. I've said before that Welbeck's games for England have been far more telling about his potential than those he played for ManUre, because he's been played to his strengths. I think Arsenal have got a total bargain* and he'll hit some important goals for them.
I'm hoping the same is true for TC23: that he will flourish for Villa because we play to his strengths.



* in the context of the current market.

[Dave]

As Makelele and Mascherano have shown big build isn't required for a defensive midfielder. However fitness and work rate are absolutely vital.

I'd say that and their overall level of awareness and understanding of the game helps set them apart. You don't need to have Tackling and Aggression 20 on Football Manager to be a great DM. Anticipation and an ability read the game are critical components.

Quite - Wilshere might not be (and might never be) a great defensive midfielder, but it isn't because he's not big and strong enough.

[ozzjim]

Medel isn't huge either. I think in the premier league size is more important than at international level. Pirlo did not always play in there either. I think Wilshire is a good enough footballer to work it out given time to do so, but needs to play there a bit for Arsenal too.

If he was better at the defensive role, Westwood would have a shout.

[Dante Lavelli]

As Makelele and Mascherano have shown big build isn't required for a defensive midfielder. However fitness and work rate are absolutely vital.

I'd say that and their overall level of awareness and understanding of the game helps set them apart. You don't need to have Tackling and Aggression 20 on Football Manager to be a great DM. Anticipation and an ability read the game are critical components.

Quite - Wilshere might not be (and might never be) a great defensive midfielder, but it isn't because he's not big and strong enough.

What I like from his original quote* was that he is prepared to do his own research and develop his game.  Compared to other recent 'star' players there has not been this willingness (Gerrard I'm looking at you) so that in itself is quite refreshing.

* I appreciate that what a player says in an interview and what they actually do, are not necessarily linked.

[paul_e]

A specialist defensive midfield is, to me, like a flyhalf in rugby, the physique and skillset is all useful but the key quality to make it in that role at the top level is game management.  Makelele, Mascherano and Pirlo have all made it look easy because they read the game brilliantly and know where to be defensively but then going forward they can use that to find the right pass and change the point of attack.  For me Wilshere doesn't read the game anything like well enough, yet.  Huddlestone just doesn't have the defensive side of it and he's always looking for the wonder pass that creates something from nothing, which should only be an option rather than the option.

[tomd2103]

"Sit" is probably the most misleading word in football. I keep hearing it bandied about like the defensive midfielder only has a 2 square-metre area of pitch to cover. Even 'holding' midfielder is a bit misleading. Yes - they play very much in front of the back 4 and aren't expected to get forwards, but they do have to be able to get from touch-line to touchline quickly and occupy space, close-down angels, etc. when the opposition are in possession. You can ger away with an immobile quarter-back style midfielder (like Huddlestone) if you're a team that dominates possession, but if you're not you really need to sacrifice some of that ability on the ball to add a bit of mobility and defence mindedness. Look at the performances of Mascherano and Nigel De Jong in the World Cup. They're the type of player that England really need.

Hopefully in the coming months this is a job that Carlos Sanchez will be doing for us.

Some good points there Russell.  Before his injuries, I've always thought Owen Hargreaves was the best player England had had in that position for years.   

[Dante Lavelli]

A specialist defensive midfield is, to me, like a flyhalf in rugby, the physique and skillset is all useful but the key quality to make it in that role at the top level is game management.  Makelele, Mascherano and Pirlo have all made it look easy because they read the game brilliantly and know where to be defensively but then going forward they can use that to find the right pass and change the point of attack.  For me Wilshere doesn't read the game anything like well enough, yet.  Huddlestone just doesn't have the defensive side of it and he's always looking for the wonder pass that creates something from nothing, which should only be an option rather than the option.

I agree with that completely.  'Game management' is something that England players have not particularly grasped.  Suarez's winner v England in the WC is a great example: Gerrard and Jagielka both attacking a high ball whereas the game demanded that a more cautious approached was called for from one of the players.

This lack of intelligence can possibly explained by the awe that was given to mourinho when it was revealed that his teams train for hypothetical game situations asking the players to discuss and identify tactics for when the team is say 1-0 up, down to ten men, 1-0 down, in extra time etc.  The revelation that all managers do not do this surprised me somewhat.

[AV82EC]

A specialist defensive midfield is, to me, like a flyhalf in rugby, the physique and skillset is all useful but the key quality to make it in that role at the top level is game management.  Makelele, Mascherano and Pirlo have all made it look easy because they read the game brilliantly and know where to be defensively but then going forward they can use that to find the right pass and change the point of attack.  For me Wilshere doesn't read the game anything like well enough, yet.  Huddlestone just doesn't have the defensive side of it and he's always looking for the wonder pass that creates something from nothing, which should only be an option rather than the option.

I agree with that completely.  'Game management' is something that England players have not particularly grasped.  Suarez's winner v England in the WC is a great example: Gerrard and Jagielka both attacking a high ball whereas the game demanded that a more cautious approached was called for from one of the players.

This lack of intelligence can possibly explained by the awe that was given to mourinho when it was revealed that his teams train for hypothetical game situations asking the players to discuss and identify tactics for when the team is say 1-0 up, down to ten men, 1-0 down, in extra time etc.  The revelation that all managers do not do this surprised me somewhat.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest. The whole English game is cloaked in a blanket of complacency, insularity and utter incompetence from top to bottom.

[olaftab]

The only ratings I saw last night gave Wilshere an 8 and Delph a 5.

Evening Standard I presume?

[olaftab]

Wilshere isn't physically big enough or strong enough to be a defensive midfielder IMO.

Makelele was 5ft 7 and weighed about 10 stone.

And Mascherano is only 5' 8".

Once again this obsession with facts spoils a perfectly futile debate!

[fbriai]

Wilshere isn't physically big enough or strong enough to be a defensive midfielder IMO.

Makelele was 5ft 7 and weighed about 10 stone.

And Mascherano is only 5' 8".

Once again this obsession with facts spoils a perfectly futile debate!

Yeah, but what is their density though?

[maidstonevillain]

Wilshere isn't physically big enough or strong enough to be a defensive midfielder IMO.

Makelele was 5ft 7 and weighed about 10 stone.

And Mascherano is only 5' 8".

Once again this obsession with facts spoils a perfectly futile debate!

Yeah, but what is their density though?

I think it is reasonable to deduce that most footballers are very dense.

[JD]

Wilshere isn't physically big enough or strong enough to be a defensive midfielder IMO.

Makelele was 5ft 7 and weighed about 10 stone.

And Mascherano is only 5' 8".

How big were Nobby Stiles or Billy Bremner? Both excellent defensive midfield players.

[tomd2103]

Wilshere isn't physically big enough or strong enough to be a defensive midfielder IMO.

Makelele was 5ft 7 and weighed about 10 stone.

And Mascherano is only 5' 8".

How big were Nobby Stiles or Billy Bremner? Both excellent defensive midfield players.

In very different eras is has to be noted JD. 

[supertom]

Finally able to check in after a week and a bit offline.
I thought Delphy did quite well. He was the best of the three in CM. Saying that, if he doesn't curb the maniacal tackling, he'll struggle at International level, but after a crazy first 20 minutes he settled in well IMO.

Wilshere persistently flatters to deceive.