Who Stays and Who goes

[not3bad]

It looks like Mr Hutton is as good as sorted anyway:

http://www.realmallorca.co.uk/news/2013/03/mallorca-want-hutton-permanent-deal

[The Left Side]

Fingers crossed

[Des Little]

Great news for the Wetherspoons in Magaluf

[mark1968]

Benteke staying is huge we need to convince him of the aspirations we have.

What aspirations have we other than survival? I don't think our aspirations can be very exciting when the owner himself is no longer interested in coming to watch.
I imagine the relative aspirations as something like:-
Aston Villa - lets keep ticking along and try our best to stay in this division
Benteke - I want to be one of the best strikers in the world.

Our aspirations couldn't convince our best players in the MON era to stay and we look even more lost now.

[tomd2103]

It looks like Mr Hutton is as good as sorted anyway:

http://www.realmallorca.co.uk/news/2013/03/mallorca-want-hutton-permanent-deal

Good.  He was really poor against Wales last night.

[eamonn]

Are we pushing our luck asking for a transfer fee? Just get him gone. You'll have a ball, Al.

[Matt Collins]

Thats pretty much spot on by James Nursey

As much as people criticise Nursey, he's a decent reporter. Mat Kendrick gets better transfer news, but his analysis and judgement of players is crap imho.

[paul_e]

Benteke staying is huge we need to convince him of the aspirations we have.

What aspirations have we other than survival? I don't think our aspirations can be very exciting when the owner himself is no longer interested in coming to watch.
I imagine the relative aspirations as something like:-
Aston Villa - lets keep ticking along and try our best to stay in this division
Benteke - I want to be one of the best strikers in the world.

Our aspirations couldn't convince our best players in the MON era to stay and we look even more lost now.

Utter bollocks.  Our aspirations are still to do as well as we can, what's changed is that the owner won't bankroll us to it and won't risk the future of the club trying to buy our way in.  It will be slower (and may turn out to be too slow for some of our current crop) but they still want to push on.  All the work in the background in the last few years has been focused on increasing revenues to allow for much more organic growth.  It's the only sensible model for running a club now, unless you have an owner willing to absorb hundreds of millions in losses whilst things break even, which is about 5 clubs in the world.

[mark1968]

Utter bollocks.  Our aspirations are still to do as well as we can, what's changed is that the owner won't bankroll us to it and won't risk the future of the club trying to buy our way in.  It will be slower (and may turn out to be too slow for some of our current crop) but they still want to push on.  All the work in the background in the last few years has been focused on increasing revenues to allow for much more organic growth.  It's the only sensible model for running a club now, unless you have an owner willing to absorb hundreds of millions in losses whilst things break even, which is about 5 clubs in the world.

Utter bollocks hey?

You need to take off rose tinted glasses my friend. I know the club's 'plan' and the reality of if is what i stated (lets keep ticking along and try our best to stay in this division). Yes, it's possible to have relative success with a well run club over time; but what evidence have you of Lerner and Faulkner having any idea of how to run a club well? Mr Lerner had a 'well run' sports club in America, but was a total failure when it came to competing in that sport.

As for increasing revenues, we were recently dropped by Genting if you didnt notice. I believe we only got that deal as the 3 6th place finishes were still recent(ish) history. We wont have big sponsors knocking on our door soon with our results now.

A well run club can only achieve so much (or little) in todays football with so many bankrolled clubs. Again, if we couldn't hang on to our best players when we were seen as genuine competitors for a top 4 place. Why would we hang onto them now? Your in a dreamworld.

Come back to me in 5 years and tell me if i've been talking bollocks. Just the facts i'm afraid.

[Dave]

Um, you're both saying the same thing.

[Steve R]

I wouldn't call Arsenal, Everton or Spurs bankrolled clubs. There is relative success to be had by doing what we are doing.

Manchester United aren't a bankrolled club either, quite the opposite in fact.

[paul_e]

You need to take off rose tinted glasses my friend. I know the club's 'plan' and the reality of if is what i stated (lets keep ticking along and try our best to stay in this division). Yes, it's possible to have relative success with a well run club over time; but what evidence have you of Lerner and Faulkner having any idea of how to run a club well? Mr Lerner had a 'well run' sports club in America, but was a total failure when it came to competing in that sport.

Kept just the bold bit because that's the sentiment that offends me in amongst all this.  First thing: I don't give a shit how well or badly the browns have done, it's a very different sport and has very different requirements, what we're looking to achieve at Villa is totally impossible with the drafts system they use.

If to you reality is that we're going to be shit for the foreseeable future that's your opinion, no matter how many time you accuse me of being in a dreamworld, or add 'fact' to your sentences it doesn't set that in stone any more.  My reality is that I can see we've had a bad season as well as anyone else but I'm also capable of separating current results from the aspirations of the club going forward.  I can also see that we have the youngest side in the league and that a number of those players have improved massively in the last 6 months.  I can therefore predict that we have the potential to improve a lot, and that keeping our bright-lights and supplementing the squad with a few more players of the right quality can see us become much more competitive in the next couple of years.

There are a lot of ifs in there (they exist in your reality as well, but you refuse to acknowledge them) but I prefer to believe that, so long as we can see this season through and still be in the league, things will get a lot better.

So many bankrolled clubs - so that'll be Chelsea, Man City and QPR?  Who else is living well outside their means at the moment?

Dropped by the sponsor - so a 2 year contract ending counts as being dropped?  Let's see who we have next year and how much it's worth before we start getting upset about the end of a contract.

Losing players - Man utd lost Ronaldo having just won the league for the umpteenth time in the last 20years - players leave, replacing them effectively is the important bit.  On top of the vision sold to the players whilst Mon was here was that we were going to break the top 4 that year, we didn't so they left.  I doubt that's the vision Lambert has put forward.  I suggest something like 'things will be tough this season but I think we have quality young players who can grow from a season battling together and become a very good unit over the next 2-3 years'.  If he's got that right there's  chance we can keep the likes of Benteke simply by stating that they knew what they were getting into at the start and appealing to them to see out the 'project'.

The issue I have with arguing against raging pessimism is that you can't lose.  If I'm right and we become a top side and everything is great you're happy.  If your right and we're still fighting relegation in 5 years time we're still shit but at least you were a prophet to that 'reality'.  On top of that I'm going to be too busy celebrating our successes to care that you were wrong but if we're shit you're going to just be 'I told them it was going to happen'.

[Mister E]

... I can see we've had a bad season as well as anyone else but I'm also capable of separating current results from the aspirations of the club going forward.  I can also see that we have the youngest side in the league and that a number of those players have improved massively in the last 6 months.  I can therefore predict that we have the potential to improve a lot, and that keeping our bright-lights and supplementing the squad with a few more players of the right quality can see us become much more competitive in the next couple of years ...

Not wishing to get involved in the spat about different realities, I nonetheless pick up the above comment, Paul.
In the post-match thread of the first game of the season (away at Upton Park) I observed that, although we'd lost, there was only one team on the pitch that would improve over the course of the season (meaning us, of course).
Looking back, our league position might argue that I'd been rather optimistic. However, if we can survive we will be stronger, meaner and better-equipped for the P'ship. We will, as you say, need to add some more quality but I genuinely believe that we can become a decent P'ship with the opportunity for cups and European ventures in the near future.
That future will include us selling our best players from time to time - because every club in the division will have to do that from time to time (bar two or three) - and that will continue to put the emphasis on smart purchasing and an excellent academy. But, after suruvial this season, there is no reason not be to reasonably optimistic.

[tomd2103]

You need to take off rose tinted glasses my friend. I know the club's 'plan' and the reality of if is what i stated (lets keep ticking along and try our best to stay in this division). Yes, it's possible to have relative success with a well run club over time; but what evidence have you of Lerner and Faulkner having any idea of how to run a club well? Mr Lerner had a 'well run' sports club in America, but was a total failure when it came to competing in that sport.

If to you reality is that we're going to be shit for the foreseeable future that's your opinion, no matter how many time you accuse me of being in a dreamworld, or add 'fact' to your sentences it doesn't set that in stone any more.  My reality is that I can see we've had a bad season as well as anyone else but I'm also capable of separating current results from the aspirations of the club going forward.  I can also see that we have the youngest side in the league and that a number of those players have improved massively in the last 6 months.  I can therefore predict that we have the potential to improve a lot, and that keeping our bright-lights and supplementing the squad with a few more players of the right quality can see us become much more competitive in the next couple of years.

Good post Paul, but I do have an issue with the above part.  We've not just had one bad season, we've had three in a row (even though we finished 9th under Houllier the warning signs were there).  I have seen enough this season, however, to suggest that there is potential in the squad, but that a lot of work is still required to take the club forward.  A big part of that work involves getting the right players in and shipping unwanted players out.  Unfortunately, we have failed to do that in the past two summers (changing manager hasn't helped) and we've been up against it as a result.  Having seen what happened in January, I would have to question whether we have the people capable of making the necessary changes to take the club forwards.   

[PaulMcGrathsNo5Shirt]

To develop as a club the vision seems pretty clear to me.

We'll buy the likes of Ashley Westwood from lower league clubs, or for relatively cheap fees. Lambert and his coaching staff will try and improve them and we'll sell them on for a profit with time. Some of that money will be re-invested in buying the next Ashley Westwood.

I'm not knocking the club for doing that, as financially it makes sense. The problem is, we're going to have to stomach 3-4 more 'transition seasons' before we get anywhere near top 6. (Assuming we stay up!)