When did the white flag go up.

[pbavfckuwait]

23.00hrs on the 31st January 2013, Randy, Faulkner and Lambert raised the flag tonight guys and please no one state that the money we will lose from the new sky deal means of course they have not.
Defense needs help, do we get it No. Midfield needs experience, do we get it No. Next home game the white flag will be given free to all those attending, please wave with gusto.

[curlytailavfc]

the flag went up when we got big eck oh well submarine avfc at the ready

[wolfman999]

August 2012.

[prmort]

The General hauled it up as he left the building.

[PaulWinch again]

It started after Moscow, that was the catalyst. A number of factors have influnced it since, including the economy, but that's where it all began to unravel.

[supertom]

In terms of this season, Bradford for me. That just said it all about how poor our form is and how inable PL has been to drag us out of the slump. We were well beaten by Millwall too and we look utterly hopeless in the Prem at the moment. The odd half decent half of football does us no good if we capitulate in the other 45. West Brom was a perfect example.

If Lambert had got a grip of things after the Chelsea and Spurs games, and really made some decisive changes to our tactics and our defensive organisation, he might have salvaged the season, but it's gotten so bad since then that I really cannot envision where our next win might come from. Even if we get a lucky win or a good result against someone, I'd never fancy us to kick on from it.

If we beat someone 3-0 one week, I'd be more inclined to bet on us getting buggered 5-0 the next, rather than win a second on the bounce.

[jonzy85]

It started after Moscow, that was the catalyst. A number of factors have influnced it since, including the economy, but that's where it all began to unravel.

I don't agree with you about Moscow. We had a great season the season after, getting to the league cup final, F.A. Cup Semi Final and were in with a shout of 4th with a game or 2 to go.

I would say it was when Randy saw what City were doing, s*** his pants and told MON no more money and by the way you have been spending too much.

[rob_bridge]

It started after Moscow, that was the catalyst. A number of factors have influnced it since, including the economy, but that's where it all began to unravel.

Just before for me when we signed Ivanhoe - best part of 15m all told pissed up the wall

[Irish villain]

August 2010.

Fixed it for you. Anybody remember Houllier's quotes the day he signed? 'Aston Villa belong about 7th to 12th in English football'.

Sound like he was brought in to take us beyond MON's glass ceiling? No. He was brought in to keep us in or around the same position but it wasn't going to matter if we dropped back to mid-table so long as the books started to balance. They panicked that January when they saw we were in the bottom three and decided on one last push with Bent and Makoun. We finished ninth on 46 points by taking 6 points from our last two games against Arsenal and Liverpool. People will attack me for saying it but we had 40 points with games against Arsenal and Liverpool remaining, hardly a comfortable top half finish was it?

Randy still had a lot of goodwill in the bank at this stage, even after the appointment of TSM. Some tried to find the positives. Randy would 'back his manager', McLeish had done 'great' with them and could really do a job at villa with the resources at his disposal. How wrong those fans were.

When we survived on 38 points last year everybody, even those of us no longer showing much faith in the 'custodians' thought we had reached our lowest point and had escaped. That in true Aston Villa style, our flirtation with relegation every sixth season or so had come and gone. Only this time it had been a little too close for comfort, less to do with our results and more to do with the inability of teams below us to find form.

We all thought Randy wouldn't let it happen again. He sacked TSM and chased ambitious, young managers (not the likes of Benitez, Magath etc that we would have seen as realistic just two years earlier mind, but our expectations were suitably lower now).We got Lambert in, we had a new kit there was an air of optimism around. We would be a comfortable 15th to 10th side now and we were happy. We liked the new recruitment strategy. If it meant there was less likelihood of us having to go through this painful cycle of boom and bust again we were all for it. With our claret and blue sun-glasses on we saw Martin Laursen and Paul McGrath rolled into one when Ron Vlaar signed. We thought we had two Mark Delaney for the price of one with Lowton and Bennett and KEA was going to be our new midfield dynamo. All on the cheap, all wanting to play for the villa!! Benteke was one for the future and we still had Bent who surely Paul Lambert would be able to utilise....

But, it was all a gamble. With hindsight we can see that a squad that last season stayed up on 38 points and goal difference needed an injection of serious, experienced quality. From the outside, it looks as though Villa weren't prepared to pay for it, as they weren't in this window. The club stinks of paralysis and I have that sinking feeling.

But lets not be under any illusions. This has been coming since before MON walked out. Houllier's comments betrayed the job spec at that time: Containment. However, once you start to accept a reduction in standards you will keep falling. By accepting, even psychologically, that 6th was kind of beyond us they were accepting falling standards where less could be achieved by our club.

McLeish, the bar representing what was acceptable had probably dropped a little further, perhaps to  9th down to 14th? Or lower? Had it been higher would they not have sacked him in February/March 2012 when it was clear we would be fighting relegation....Which brings us to where we are now. Bringing in players with no experience of a scrap when we desperately need to take the likes of Clark out of the firing line. To me, it shows that relegation is seen as a distinct possibility that there's no point fighting against anymore. We haven't the resources or bottle to fight this anymore. We can't keep up with the mighty Fulhams, Stokes, Swanseas and Wigans of the footballing world.

Fans need to rediscover their great club. The regeneration of Aston Villa will begin in the terraces. It won't begin in the boardroom. Villa fans have to put a stop to the rot. Show Lerner that lower standards will NOT suffice. Year on year lowering of standards, and acceptance of the 'party line' has taken us to this point, to the lowest point in quarter of a century.

Look at Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds....How much lower are we going to let this go or are we going to put a stop to it?

[sonlyme]

I appreciate that recent form has been poor - but in the midst of the calamities there have also been good performances.  I don't see our plight in the same way as some here do.  First - I don't think we have any right to be a Premiership ever-present.  I don't think we have an automatic right to even be the best in the Midlands.  What we do have a right to expect is that the owner backs his manager with money commensurate with our earning power and that the manager and the players give their all for the club.

I'm sorry - but Lerner has backed a series of managers with money - lots of it - except for McRubbish - which could be just as well.  And as for effort - Villa have looked awful at times conceding stupid silly goals - but even then I wouldn't say the players weren't trying - just that they were defensively naive.

I see the post above is seeking to compare Villa with Leeds United - utter nonsense.  QPR are the new Leeds.  Villa are taking the action they are now precisely to avoid becoming another Leeds, or Portsmouth, or indeed Bradford City.  Financial reality doesn't mean they won't spend - it does mean that they won't spend extravagantly.  If you want that - QPR - Man Citeh - and Chelsea are more suited to your needs.

Villa have never been top spenders.  We have always built teams from the ground up.  And if we want to blame the owner for not spending another £100 million in the transfer window then explain to me the progress of Swansea City.  Show me the big money they spent to buy success.  And tell me - who is it that we paid big money for that went on to become a legend for our club?  Is it Paul McGrath?  Is it Gordon Cowans or Dennis Mortimer or perhaps Brian Little or Ray Graydon?  Could it be Dwight Yorke?

Some of the posts in this thread hit the nail on the head regarding when we began to decline - halfway through MON's final season.  Too many average older players on massive wages is our problem,  eating up over 90% of our income, yet MON wanted even more.  And he wanted more because he knew the players he had weren't good enough.  Hence the dummy spit.  Since that moment the ridiculous turnover of managers means there has been no overall vision of how we want to play or the players we need to make that aim achievable.  For three years we have had chop and change.  We have struggled for the past two seasons - is it any wonder we are struggling now?

Lambert was not my favourite when the managers job was open but I saw the logic in his appointment.  He is not a clueless clown because he has the medals to prove it both as a player and as a manager.  If you think he is a clueless clown then show me what you have achieved in professional football and I'll listen to you.  Lambert has been in the job for six months and the majority of our problems are not down to him.  While it is easy to say his summer purchases were unknowns and reliance on youth has weakened us - I think it is only a temporary phase.  I have seen them play more football in a handful of games this season than they did in the entirety of last.

I could be wrong - but if we can begin to perform like did against Albion and Newcastle for the full 90 minutes then I think we will climb out of trouble.  Young defenders will make mistakes - but they should learn from them - and I think they are.  If we stick together - play as a team - defend as a team attack as a team - I see us getting out of this mess.

And if that happens - then the old guard of Bent, and Ireland, and Given will go and take their massive wage demands with them - and in their going they will release an enormous amount of room for Villa to truly rebuild.

I know it is hard - but we find out who we are in the hard times - not the good times.  If we can support our lads - believe that they care - believe that they will give everything they have - and cheer them on (as our amazing away supporters always do) - then we have a chance.

If we moan at them - get on their backs - blame them and tell them they are not good enough - then what will that achieve?

We've been mugged, clubbed, and drubbed.  And we have also had no luck whatsoever.  Every shot and header against us goes in - every shot and header for us hits the post or is met with a miraculous save.  We should have beaten Bradford 10-4.  We should have beaten Albion 4-1.  We should at the least have drawn with Newcastle 2-2.  In the words of Al Pacino and Mrs sonlyme - it is only a matters of inches between success and failure.  We have been failing but we are not that far away from finding a decent young side - and I hope that we as fans can give the manager time to prove his judgement right - find that extra inch - and find success.

UTV

[cdward]

In reply to the OP, it was when Lerner decided  not to back MON any more, around the same time that the oil rich man city started their spending. As Graham Taylor has recently said,  Lerner came in saying we would aim for champions league,  and it may take 5 years or so, but he bottled it when Man City started signing all of ours and everyone else's best players. He decided to give up on the plan, but didn't want to tell the fans.  The fact that MON won his constructive dismissal case points to the fact that Randy had promised one thing and then changed his mind.

[wookster]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/everton-vs-aston-villa-preview-1569599

I know its the Mirror but it pretty says it all.  Learner is no longer financing the playing staff at this club

[Chris Smith]

It started after Moscow, that was the catalyst. A number of factors have influnced it since, including the economy, but that's where it all began to unravel.

I don't agree with you about Moscow. We had a great season the season after, getting to the league cup final, F.A. Cup Semi Final and were in with a shout of 4th with a game or 2 to go.

I would say it was when Randy saw what City were doing, s*** his pants and told MON no more money and by the way you have been spending too much.

Pretty much how I see it too.

[ez]

http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/130202/premier-leagues-biggest-spenders-201213-revealed-190774?p=14
According to talksport we are the 6th highest spenders this season.

[bertlambshank]

http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/130202/premier-leagues-biggest-spenders-201213-revealed-190774?p=14
According to talksport we are the 6th highest spenders this season.

Doesn't take wages into account.