Why was McLeish sacked?

[Monty]

I think he was sacked because they realised it was all a huge mistake in the first place.  The football he presented wasn't good to watch, wasn't successful, wasn't progressive and was designed not to lose rather than to try and win.  There appeared to be little chance of it ever developing.  McLeish  simply didn't have the ability, knowledge  or imagination do it any other way. 

Lambert on the other hand appeared to have a long term strategy that involved modern tactical thinking, developing young players in the right way, and playing an entertaining game based on passing and moving.  In theory it was the right call. Up to the Chelsea game things were iffy but looked like they were improving, and I think after the Liverpool game most of us probably thought we would just about be okay this season and then build on it next season when a few more of the higher earners were off the books.

I don't think anyone could have predicted just how spectacularly tits up it would go, but it's hard to see how Lambert is going to turn it around without new players and a long hard look at his "tactics".

Agreed. I've been wondering if Lambert is, like McLeish and MON, stuck in the 90s, just a different one. Whereas the other two were bit British meat-and-two-veg in there approach, Lambert seems a bit like a 90s German team - changing the shape is probably the most important thing, and technique and passing are valued.

The problem is that the way the game has changed has meant passing-and-moving football needs to be a lot more precise, and practiced rigorously (and perhaps imaginatively) on the training ground. Lambert's encouraging his team to move off the ball and so forth will work sometimes, but it seems a little wing-and-a-prayer to be consistent, like Swansea. We're emotional and susceptible to losing our heads, whereas Swansea and Wigan seem to have trained so much to have faith and remain calm in what they do.

Wehn I say that it's largely based on a squad that finished 9th in 2010/2011, compared to one that finished 16th in 2011/2012. 

True, though to be fair McLeish had Young and Downing sold without him really having a say in it, and he was allowed to sign only one replacement for two players.

[not3bad]

The problem is that the way the game has changed has meant passing-and-moving football needs to be a lot more precise, and practiced rigorously (and perhaps imaginatively) on the training ground. Lambert's encouraging his team to move off the ball and so forth will work sometimes, but it seems a little wing-and-a-prayer to be consistent, like Swansea. We're emotional and susceptible to losing our heads, whereas Swansea and Wigan seem to have trained so much to have faith and remain calm in what they do.

Swansea and Wigan also have a system that has been placed for a few seasons now.

[Monty]

The problem is that the way the game has changed has meant passing-and-moving football needs to be a lot more precise, and practiced rigorously (and perhaps imaginatively) on the training ground. Lambert's encouraging his team to move off the ball and so forth will work sometimes, but it seems a little wing-and-a-prayer to be consistent, like Swansea. We're emotional and susceptible to losing our heads, whereas Swansea and Wigan seem to have trained so much to have faith and remain calm in what they do.

Swansea and Wigan also have a system that has been placed for a few seasons now.

Very true, that practice is even further ingrained. In both cases, as it happens, the architect has been Roberto Martinez.

[Shrek]

McLeish was shit and only thought short term.

Lambert is not shit and is thinking long term.
People just can't accept that when you pay the same wages as Wigan, you'll be competing with Wigan.
If we stay up this year, we will be alt stronger next year.

Fuck me, McLeish had Collins, Cuellar, Hutton & Warnock, are we all sure it was Lambert who decided he wouldn't keep and use them? I'm not.

[Shrek]

The problem is that the way the game has changed has meant passing-and-moving football needs to be a lot more precise, and practiced rigorously (and perhaps imaginatively) on the training ground. Lambert's encouraging his team to move off the ball and so forth will work sometimes, but it seems a little wing-and-a-prayer to be consistent, like Swansea. We're emotional and susceptible to losing our heads, whereas Swansea and Wigan seem to have trained so much to have faith and remain calm in what they do.

Swansea and Wigan also have a system that has been placed for a few seasons now.

Very true, that practice is even further ingrained. In both cases, as it happens, the architect has been Roberto Martinez.

So Martinez is great, yet Wigan are below us in the league.

[Monty]

So Martinez is great, yet Wigan are below us in the league.

The size of club and resources of Wigan, they should be below us in the table, and he's done well to keep them in the league so often. They also play a certain brand of football with surprising success over the last few years, and he's shown he can lay long-term foundations at Swansea before as well.

[danno]

So Martinez is great, yet Wigan are below us in the league.

The size of club and resources of Wigan, they should be below us in the table, and he's done well to keep them in the league so often. They also play a certain brand of football with surprising success over the last few years, and he's shown he can lay long-term foundations at Swansea before as well.

There's no way of saying this without being disrespectful, but Swansea and Wigan will have afforded him
more time to lay foundations and build something. Simply because, they haven't got any illusions about top six
being their rightful place in the food chain.

For example if he'd got the Liverpool job, he'd have been hounded out after a year, if they finished 10th or lower.
It seems to be, that the bigger the ambitions of the club, the less time you're afforded.

[Monty]

There's no way of saying this without being disrespectful, but Swansea and Wigan will have afforded him
more time to lay foundations and build something. Simply because, they haven't got any illusions about top six
being their rightful place in the food chain.

For example if he'd got the Liverpool job, he'd have been hounded out after a year, if they finished 10th or lower.
It seems to be, that the bigger the ambitions of the club, the less time you're afforded.

That's certainly true, so part of the arsenal of a manager in that sort of position is learning to manage a transition - don't try too much too quickly, balance the short against the long term. I have no idea how well Martinez would do that, to be fair.

[dave.woodhall]

So Martinez is great, yet Wigan are below us in the league.

The size of club and resources of Wigan, they should be below us in the table, and he's done well to keep them in the league so often. They also play a certain brand of football with surprising success over the last few years, and he's shown he can lay long-term foundations at Swansea before as well.

There's no way of saying this without being disrespectful, but Swansea and Wigan will have afforded him
more time to lay foundations and build something. Simply because, they haven't got any illusions about top six
being their rightful place in the food chain.

For example if he'd got the Liverpool job, he'd have been hounded out after a year, if they finished 10th or lower.
It seems to be, that the bigger the ambitions of the club, the less time you're afforded.

Agreed. Albion haven't been overly bothered about the occasional relegation in their plans.

[danno]

There's no way of saying this without being disrespectful, but Swansea and Wigan will have afforded him
more time to lay foundations and build something. Simply because, they haven't got any illusions about top six
being their rightful place in the food chain.

For example if he'd got the Liverpool job, he'd have been hounded out after a year, if they finished 10th or lower.
It seems to be, that the bigger the ambitions of the club, the less time you're afforded.

That's certainly true, so part of the arsenal of a manager in that sort of position is learning to manage a transition - don't try too much too quickly, balance the short against the long term. I have no idea how well Martinez would do that, to be fair.

It doesn't help us (at all) but, the only guy I remember managing for the short term and long recently was Bobby Robson.
At Newcastle he got as much out of Rob Lee and Kevin Gallagher as he could, before he tried to bring through Jenas, Bellamy, Ambrose, Viana.

oh and David Moyes, although I seem to remember he finished 6th/7th one season and 16th the next. Again at a different club that may have seen him receive a hefty payout and his marching orders.

[ez]

I prefer to ask 'Why was McLeish appointed?'. I still haven't worked that one out.

I'm trying to remember the line that was put out. Because he shared the clubs... something. What was it?

[Dave Clark Five]

I know where you're heading with this, but anyway...

He was sacked because he was a bewilderingly poor choice, results and performances were worsening, he'd lost the support of the crowd.

He never had the support of the crowd so he hadn't lost it.

[Dave Clark Five]

McLeish was shit and only thought short term.

Lambert is not shit and is thinking long term.
People just can't accept that when you pay the same wages as Wigan, you'll be competing with Wigan.
If we stay up this year, we will be alt stronger next year.

Fuck me, McLeish had Collins, Cuellar, Hutton & Warnock, are we all sure it was Lambert who decided he wouldn't keep and use them? I'm not.

Tell me why Lambert isn't shit please.

[tomd2103]

I think he was sacked because they realised it was all a huge mistake in the first place.  The football he presented wasn't good to watch, wasn't successful, wasn't progressive and was designed not to lose rather than to try and win.  There appeared to be little chance of it ever developing.  McLeish  simply didn't have the ability, knowledge  or imagination do it any other way. 

Lambert on the other hand appeared to have a long term strategy that involved modern tactical thinking, developing young players in the right way, and playing an entertaining game based on passing and moving.  In theory it was the right call. Up to the Chelsea game things were iffy but looked like they were improving, and I think after the Liverpool game most of us probably thought we would just about be okay this season and then build on it next season when a few more of the higher earners were off the books.

I don't think anyone could have predicted just how spectacularly tits up it would go, but it's hard to see how Lambert is going to turn it around without new players and a long hard look at his "tactics".

Agreed. I've been wondering if Lambert is, like McLeish and MON, stuck in the 90s, just a different one. Whereas the other two were bit British meat-and-two-veg in there approach, Lambert seems a bit like a 90s German team - changing the shape is probably the most important thing, and technique and passing are valued.

The problem is that the way the game has changed has meant passing-and-moving football needs to be a lot more precise, and practiced rigorously (and perhaps imaginatively) on the training ground. Lambert's encouraging his team to move off the ball and so forth will work sometimes, but it seems a little wing-and-a-prayer to be consistent, like Swansea. We're emotional and susceptible to losing our heads, whereas Swansea and Wigan seem to have trained so much to have faith and remain calm in what they do.

Wehn I say that it's largely based on a squad that finished 9th in 2010/2011, compared to one that finished 16th in 2011/2012. 

True, though to be fair McLeish had Young and Downing sold without him really having a say in it, and he was allowed to sign only one replacement for two players.

Monty - hasn't it been suggested that Lambert isn't really "hands on" during training and leaves that work to others?  I must admit that when photos were released of pre season training, I was a little surprised to see Gary Karsa seemingly involved in the training sessions.     

[Monty]

Monty - hasn't it been suggested that Lambert isn't really a "hands on" during training and leaves that work to others?  I must admit that when photos were released of pre season training, I was a little surprised to see Gary Karsa seemingly involved in the training sessions.     

That would be very MON-esque, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.