Aston Villa v Bradford City Post-Match Thread

[VinnieChase84]

The club need to start planning for life in The Championship as we are definitely headed there.
Us fans need to adjust to that too. I'm not sure what it looks like but it's going to get much worse before it gets any better.

Definitely. Lose to milwall and Newcastle, can PL survive
We're going down faster than a whore when the navy pulls into shore

[London Villan]

Re defending set pieces and zonal v man-for-man, there is also the old school Italian defending - you man mark the opponents ( usually borderline sexual molestation) and your free defenders attack the ball like they hate it with a passion.

Is the tactic I would use. It also means that it takes some of the attackers out of the mix as they have to block the runs of the free defenders.

[ktvillan]

So they practice set pieces every day with man for man marking. Clearly not working so maybe it's time to try zonal marking ?

Err, I don't know why this rarely gets pointed out, but man-to-man is the fundamental. Zonal is an evolution of it. If you can't manage man-to-man, you sure as hell can't pull off zonal.

And as somebody else pointed out earlier, if you're crap at corners at both ends, you ain't never going to get any better, 'cos you're not practising against quality.

Er how does that work then?  As I understand it zonal marking involves players covering a particular patch, mainly at the near post and then across the 6 yard box, each responsible for the space in front of them.  You may have other players trying to block runs of attackers into the spaces but fundamentally you boss your space and make sure you are first to the ball.  That's hardly the same as chasing an attacker around the box like our defenders have been trying and failing to do recently. 

[PaulMcGrathsNo5Shirt]

I would imagine in training at Bodymoor Heath we look good at defending corners. If Bannan is delivering the corner they'll go sailing over the danger area anyway.

[PeterWithe]

Is it a wonder that our players are liable to panic when their boss responds to an opposition goal by abandoning all rhyme and reason and playing six forwards?

[silhillvilla]

I would imagine in training at Bodymoor Heath we look good at defending corners. If Bannan is delivering the corner they'll go sailing over the danger area anyway.

Gallows Humour at its finest. Well done Sir, best laugh I've had all night.

[DaveD]

So they practice set pieces every day with man for man marking. Clearly not working so maybe it's time to try zonal marking ?

Err, I don't know why this rarely gets pointed out, but man-to-man is the fundamental. Zonal is an evolution of it. If you can't manage man-to-man, you sure as hell can't pull off zonal.

And as somebody else pointed out earlier, if you're crap at corners at both ends, you ain't never going to get any better, 'cos you're not practising against quality.

Er how does that work then?  As I understand it zonal marking involves players covering a particular patch, mainly at the near post and then across the 6 yard box, each responsible for the space in front of them.  You may have other players trying to block runs of attackers into the spaces but fundamentally you boss your space and make sure you are first to the ball.  That's hardly the same as chasing an attacker around the box like our defenders have been trying and failing to do recently.

When done properly, it's also about handing attackers on as they leave your area and enter another defender's (rather than, as you say, chasing them around the area). Otherwise it wouldn't be called marking. Needs a lot of communication - not something our lot seem to be good at.

I agree with Pat McMahon though - man mark and have your best man in the air spare to attack the ball.

[MonsXI]

I would imagine in training at Bodymoor Heath we look good at defending corners. If Bannan is delivering the corner they'll go sailing over the danger area anyway.

If that wasnt so true it would be funny! How many corners tonight alone?

[Zakk Fatt]

160 mile round trip for that embarrassment.  How inept can Lambert get.  He played that game like a pub team abandoning all tactics.  Putting on 5 forwards would only work if they could spread out but having at least four of them standing on the penalty spot waiting for a cross from wingers who don't exist was a joke.

I left before Andy got our consolation so I could get back down south before dawn ready to face the smirks at work tomorrow.

This great club of ours is well and truly in the toilet, we are just awaiting for some one to flush.

Lambert was utterly clueless, the team were utterly clueless, unless a miracle happens then we will be struggling away at Leeds and Small Heath scratching for draws.

I really think we are heading for not just one but a few seasons in the lower leagues, a travesty.

This is the worst bunch of gutless wonders I have ever seen wearing our shirts.  Bradford cost £7500 as a squad.  Over two legs they were better than us.  Farce...and one of Villa's saddest days.

Lerner out now and take Faulkener with you, Lambert can stay as he has proved he can build very good Championship sides which when he builds a decent Championship side at Villa Park he will have improved the team 1000% from where we are now.

We will get beat at Millwall, we are lambs to the slaughter against Newcastle and Everton made us look like complete idiots earlier this season.

But in the words of our inept manager 'we will be fine'.  WAKE UP...

Finally well done to Bradford they deserve thier day out in London but I hope they don't think they just beat premier league opposition because I didnt see any premier league players on the Park tonight or any premier league management in the dug out, did anyone else?

[adam#1]

Can I be the first to say congratulations to Bradford, fair play to them.

Seconded. Was lerner even there tonight to see thta?

Lambert didn't even know if Lerner was there FFS!!!

[oldham_villa]

I'm not entirely surprised by the result, this Villa team have serious flaws.

I can only imagine Lambert instructed his full backs not to go too gung ho in the first half, as there were acres of space for Lowton to push onto, but he seemed reluctant. The switch should have gone much quicker also, but perhaps if Lowton had pushed on, the switch would have become more obvious. Ireland sussed it as he started to move into that space towards the end of the first half.

Talking of Ireland, it seems to be indicative of the modern game where someone moves 5 yards, extends their hand to say, "pass the ball". They receive it and pass it back first time. They then move a further yard and extend the hand again. Repeat the same process as above. All this when running into space would have been the most productive option.

The tempo in the first half was mystifying. So half arsed and tepid, I continually shook my head that the setup did not utilise the magic weapon we had; the fans. Surely it isn't that revolutionary to get people wide, take them on, push the game onto Bradford with a high tempo and make them panic. The roar of the crowd would drive the lads on. What we got was this patient pass and (half move) methodology. We had a lot of possession and got a goal from Benteke, but I was far from convinced. As someone commented, there appears to be a unwillingness/ instruction for the strikers not to run the channels.

Heading the ball: how many of our players can not win a header? Clark did not commandingly win 1 header all match. Vlaar wasn't much better. Perhaps we have been spoilt with witnessing Martin Laursen in recent years but I've never seen a centre half pairing win so few headers. It goes it joint saying that this is a major cause of our set piece defending. Also, it was amazing how many stupid and needless free kicks we conceded in dangerous positions in the first half. Culprits = Bennett and Delph.

The most mystifying thing was the forward players in the second half. I saw something I have never seen in 30 years of watching football, darting when I was 10). We had Benteke, Agbonlahor, Wiemann and Bent all occupying the a 15 foot surface area. It was continual from when Wiemann arrived and I saw nothing from Lambert to direct them into moving. Do the management now realise how easy it is for a defence to manage this ? Stretch the field and it stretches their team. I almost took a photo of it at one point as I was speechless at it. I would have started with Bent at the expense of Agbonlahor, but Lambert clearly has a problem with him. Bent would have gobbled up that excellent cross from Bennett that he pinged through the 6 yard box had he been on the field. Benteke and Agbonlahor just stood there rather than rushing into the box.

On a night where insanity ruled a special mention has to go to the staff behind the refreshment bar within the Doug Ellis Stand. Gobshites of the highest order with as much get up and go as Steven Ireland.

Absolute waste of a journey from the north west and I won't be making another trip for the foreseeable future. Why should I incur the cost and wear and tear of my vehicle for individuals that simply do not care? It looked like Vlaar was upset at the end but the simple truth is the management and players need to have along hard look at themselves in the mirror. As much as an error prone player he is, we need Richard Dunne back desperately. We are most certainly going down at this moment in time. I was sort of happy to get Paul Lambert on board but the way he bundles 4 forwards within 15 feet and does not alter it makes me think he has not got a clue.

Fair play to Bradford.

Finally, i hope the chap who was stretchered away from the Holte End in the first half is alright.

Nick

[The Man With A Stick]

Just woke up to see the score (I'm in India) and I'm not even that surprised.

How low do we sink?  Where do we go from here?

[adam#1]

Losing to a 4th Division Club over 2 legs. STILL not being able to defend a fucking corner. Embarrasing hammerings by Chelsea and Spurs. Home defeats to Wigan and Saints. 22nd January and no new signings. God knows how many points chucked away in the last few minutes. I've never been at so a low ebb as a Villa fan even when we flirted with relegation under TSM.

I was a staunch supporter of Lambert but somethings got to give. If he's not backed by Lerner then it seems he is unable to get results out of what we have...for whatever reason.

Millwall and Newcastle wins or he's gone...if not before.

Absolute nail on the head. The tactical naivety is unbelievable. Given is quite simply a poor Goalkeeper but great shot stopper. No striker should be  able to head a ball in the 6 yard box as the keeper should be claiming it. Given was rooted.
Gabby contributed nothing, second half last week contributed nothing and hasn't contributed much since MON told him to bulk up.
We have an appalling mid-field that has no industry, no creativity and no endeavor. Added to a shocking inability to protect the defence (two banks of four really isn't rocket science) we are so narrow you might as well move the sidelines in 15 yards either side of the pitch.
Bennett was atrocious, Clark clueless, Bannan Useless and Delph headless.

The thing is there was nothing wrong with Lambert's tactics when he got Norwich promoted in double quick time.  He still is a very promising young manager.  Our problems lie much deeper than first team manager, it is the "plan" of Lerner and Faulkner that is destroying us bit by bit.  For three years now confidence and belief have been seeping out of the club and rot has been allowed to set in, little by little.  That's not Lambert's fault - he had no problem organizing a Norwich team to give Villa a shoeing at the end of last season.  Getting the rot out and spreading positivity and a winning mentality on a tight budget  is a tough old ask.  As Sir Graham Taylor said, when a big club starts to slide it takes a hell of a lot of stopping.  Lerner/Faulkner are not football people and they don't understand this - if they did they would have planned our transfer funds in such a way that we would have had new players in this January.  Imagine what a new midfielder from Europe could have done for us tonight?  (Getting to Wembley would have gone some way to paying his fee, too.)

It's been three years of constant fire-fighting without any firm plan* in place behind the scenes.  Lerner and Faulkner seem totally unwilling to get football people and football industry experts in to guide the club and it is costing us dearly.  If Lambert goes, our next manager will be facing the same problems, too, and eight months down the line, when we are sitting in the bottom six of the Championship, people will want rid of the new guy too.  We're in danger of becoming Leeds Utd here and it is totally and utterly down to the Boardroom.

The problem is not the manager - it's the people above him unfortunately.  It's high time Faulkner/Lerner faced the fans in a forum.


*I tell a lie, our plan is to make it into the top twenty turnovers of European clubs every year. 

Seconded, thirded and fourthed (?). This has been evident from when MON left. He successfully sued them for constructive dismissal. So presumably they substantially changed his job giving him grounds to sue. He was still managing the team, so you could postulate (and this is obviously hypothetical) that they took the Director of Football type work from him......and gave it to Faulkner (there's no one else doing it) who quite frankly should be working his way through the management training scheme at MBNA still, not having a go at running football club in my opinion.

Daddy's little rich boy should grow a pair, realise he's ballsing this up, making a lot of people unhappy in the process, and employ people who have experience in football executive management. He's behaving like a spoilt brat who believes he knows best and won't get any help in, certainly not employ anyone who disagrees with him. At least when Doug behaved like he knew best there was an acceptance that he did have extensive knowledge of the game, even if he was full of sh*t.

[Immune_Jam]

G'day (well not really!)

My first post here, as I have always thought that being geographically separate, I struggle to have anything meaningful to add, with the plethora of good opinions, and otherwise.  Anyhow, I don't think I need to go on about the result, because the performance was self-evident.  What I would like to hear opinions on are the expectations of PL clubs with regard to the players - who cost and are paid - orders of magnitude above lower division opposition, yet are unable to perform at the required level.  Our team seems to be full of these passengers, and today I picked on "Pykrete Ron" (unfortunately seemed to bit a bit wooden today!), but he is not alone!

I have been a Villa supporter all of my life.  I was born in Brum, but emigrated out to Australia in '85.  I even have a picture of myself in '82 with the cup.

Here in Australia, to support teams like Villa, or other also-rans in the PL takes some commitment.  The local coverage is full of the usual suspects, but we do get good coverage for all of our games.

I haven't missed a match on TV for about 5 years, and despite Doug, despite the MON spendfest and the McLeish experiment, this is the worst Villa side that I have seen.

I'm not going to even bother rating individuals.........except one - Ron Vlaar.

Ron Vlaar may show the ridiculous amounts of money that very ordinary PL players (within our team and others) are transferred for and paid.

Forgive my recollection of the goal, as I was seething, but here is how I see it.

Ron Vlaar, supposedly one of the better Dutch defenders, capped by his country 14 times (forgive me if I am wrong in my figures, but it is really the sentiment I am getting at) and cost us 7 million.  The Bradford player who scored, whose name somebody else may add was bought for 7 thousand and his last employer was the Co-Op.

So my question is about the expectation of return when a player who cost 1000 times his opponent is made to look like a pub player.  I am also aware that he is coming back from injury - moot point - you are supposed to be a professional with a value a thousand times greater than your opponent who embarrassed you and embarrassed this club and it's supporters.

Damian

[villadelph]

Can I be the first to say congratulations to Bradford, fair play to them.

Seconded. Was lerner even there tonight to see thta?

Lambert didn't even know if Lerner was there FFS!!!

Ha, you think Randy's flying over for a midweek soccer game! Crazy lot you are.