Jordan Bowery

[paul_e]

Simple answer to the tactics question.  If you gave Ferguson and TSM the same set of players for a season who do you think would finish higher up?  If you think tactics aren't important then I guess you'll answer that they'd be about level, does that sound right?

[Jockey Randall]

Surely that suggests that actually tactics are very important?

Also, although it pains me to say it, look at Albion and how well they are doing. Under Hodgson they did well because they were so solidly organised. At Anfield last night, and at various points this season, they've won games you wouldn't have backed them to win precisely because of their shape and organisation - and surely that is all about tactics, too?

West Brom can be explained also. Look at their figures last season regarding goals for/against and points:
45 gf
52 ga
47 points

This season barring injuries they are on course for totals around:
53 gf
51ga
54 points

So what changed from last season playing staff wise?
Their most started XI last season was:
1    GK         Ben Foster    39    
12    RB         Steven Reid    21    
23    CB         Gareth McAuley    35    
3    CB         Jonas Olsson    34    
20    LB         Nicky Shorey    23    
11    RM         Chris Brunt    26    
21    CM         Youssouf Mulumbu    35    
7    CM         James Morrison    25    
14    LM         Jerome Thomas    28    
24    CF         Peter Odemwingie    27    
9    CF         Shane Long    24

This season out of that team they've replaced Shorey with Ridgewell for a large part of the season, and Billy Jones has replaced Reid for a good chunk. In midfield they bought in Yacob in the summer who has for a large part replaced Jerome Thomas, although they've had a mixture of starters outisde of the defence consisting of various selections from Morrison/Yacob/Brunt/Mulumbu/Godamnwingie/Long/Lukaku/Gera and Dorrans (incidently I don't know if anyone saw the stat regarding West Brom when Yacob and Mulumbu have played together last night but let's just say it was very telling).

Apart from Yacob the other significant first XI signing they made was Lukaku who has contributed 9 goals in the league so far.

So it's clear that despite the changes, defensively they're not improved at all but they are capable of scoring more goals as the two players they've added to the squad have ensured that.

I'm not saying tactics are not important. Far from it. I just think in the current game where the level of management is so high, especially in the Premier league, it becomes nigh on impossible to have a massive impact on your end of season outcome through tactical decisions. The fact that Martinez has managed to keep Wigan up for several years despite consistently having a bottom 5 squad reflects very well on his tactical decisions imo.

[Concrete John]

Southampton beating Man City shows the beauty of football as anything can happen in a one off game. Over the course of a season though, Saints are very unlikely to be higher than Man City as the players are vastly different in quality.

So tactics do come into play in a one off game but don't over the longer term?

Of course the players at City are better, and better than every other squad in the league, yet they fine themselves 12 points off top spot.

Man Utd have some great players but player against player they aren't as good as City and sometimes you'd argue Chelsea as well, however, their tactics work and have done for years.

The tactics are good, but more than that is they've grown a wining mentality as a club, so they're playing with the main thing we lack - confidence.  They also have a real togetherness as a squad, which both Chelsea and Man City lack.

[Drummond]

You said that it was about players not tactics. Now you're saying it's about tactics (citing Wigan's performances), make your mind up ;-)

[Concrete John]

Simple answer to the tactics question.  If you gave Ferguson and TSM the same set of players for a season who do you think would finish higher up?  If you think tactics aren't important then I guess you'll answer that they'd be about level, does that sound right?

They'd be trained better, motivated better and have better tactics.  So the answer is Ferguson for a combination of reasons and not just tactics.

[Clark W Griswold]

Yes, Bowery did well on Sunday. To be fair, he already looks a better version of how Heskey was in the last couple of seasons for us. And for so much less money. If we go down he'll do a decent job for us next season.

[Jockey Randall]

Southampton beating Man City shows the beauty of football as anything can happen in a one off game. Over the course of a season though, Saints are very unlikely to be higher than Man City as the players are vastly different in quality.

So tactics do come into play in a one off game but don't over the longer term?

Of course the players at City are better, and better than every other squad in the league, yet they fine themselves 12 points off top spot.

Man Utd have some great players but player against player they aren't as good as City and sometimes you'd argue Chelsea as well, however, their tactics work and have done for years.

No that's not the point I was making regarding that game. I'm saying anything can happen in a one off game, that doesn't mean I'm saying tactics influenced the outcome of that game (although I don't think Mancini is that blessed in that department, as you say their playing squad is probably the best in the league). Look at what happened in that game, Joe Hart made an absolute howler and Barry produced a beauty of an OG. Now that won't always happen will it? Therefore backing the point that anything can happen in a one off game. Just like Bradford could beat Swansea at Wembley, Swansea could give away a penalty and have a man sent off in the first 5 mins, but it's obviously very unlikely.

Look at the game last night. Liverpool battered Albion but ending up losing. Why? Not because they were outclassed, but because of a random outcome of a game. They had 23 shots to Albions 4 and 57% possession. If they score the penalty it would probably have been a different outcome. Let's say you play that game 100 times. Liverpool would probably win about 70 of them yes? It just so happens that 1 of the 9 times Albion would probably win came in last night.

The same applies to our game on Sunday. Chances are we would probably have won about 35/100 if the game was played that many times, we just happened to get that result in our favour on Sunday.

[Jockey Randall]

You said that it was about players not tactics. Now you're saying it's about tactics (citing Wigan's performances), make your mind up ;-)

I'm saying the part that Martinez can influence along with the purchase of players, he has done exceptionally well. My original point was that players are by far the most important component. I'm not saying they are the be all and end all.

[Chris Smith]

I've recounted this story before. A bloke I know, who is a qualified coach, did some work with Tamworth youngsters and some scouting for the Villa, once spent a while talking to me about tactics and the influence they had on games then finished it off with something like "in the end though it comes down to players; ability, performance and attitude".

So, a manager has to get the right players in the right positions but after that it's down to how they perform as individuals and as a team. On Sunday, having the additional height in the team helped on set pieces and the long diagonal balls West Ham were likely to employ. So on that point a tactical decision contributed to the victory.

[paul_e]

Simple answer to the tactics question.  If you gave Ferguson and TSM the same set of players for a season who do you think would finish higher up?  If you think tactics aren't important then I guess you'll answer that they'd be about level, does that sound right?

They'd be trained better, motivated better and have better tactics.  So the answer is Ferguson for a combination of reasons and not just tactics.

So effectively there are 4 elements to a successful side.

Good Coaching
Confidence/Motivation
Good Players
Good Tactics and tactical use of resources

Man Utd have got all 4 right and are strolling to the title because of it.

In isolation any of those elements can make a side over-perform, MON has made a career of getting by on his ability to get a team motivated and playing with confidence in themselves.  Man City have won the league last year despite having a fairly fractured squad and the manager not being the greatest tactician, because they have one of the best squads ever put together.

When teams get it right in all 4 cases is when you see things like the performances of Barcelona in the last few years.

[PaulWinch again]

As I said on Sunday I think Bowery put in a good shift and did what was asked of him, but he looks some way short of Premier League quality especially on the right. It worked ok on Sunday, which is great but I don't see him as a long term option in that role and I'm sure Lambert doesn't either.

[Jockey Randall]

I've recounted this story before. A bloke I know, who is a qualified coach, did some work with Tamworth youngsters and some scouting for the Villa, once spent a while talking to me about tactics and the influence they had on games then finished it off with something like "in the end though it comes down to players; ability, performance and attitude".

So, a manager has to get the right players in the right positions but after that it's down to how they perform as individuals and as a team. On Sunday, having the additional height in the team helped on set pieces and the long diagonal balls West Ham were likely to employ. So on that point a tactical decision contributed to the victory.

Interesting story. Pretty much how I see the game currently as well.

[paul_e]

I've recounted this story before. A bloke I know, who is a qualified coach, did some work with Tamworth youngsters and some scouting for the Villa, once spent a while talking to me about tactics and the influence they had on games then finished it off with something like "in the end though it comes down to players; ability, performance and attitude".

So, a manager has to get the right players in the right positions but after that it's down to how they perform as individuals and as a team. On Sunday, having the additional height in the team helped on set pieces and the long diagonal balls West Ham were likely to employ. So on that point a tactical decision contributed to the victory.

so that'll be tactics then...

Don't over complicate things, a tactical decision can be as simple as telling your big striker to drift left because their right back is tiny, and those minor considerations can make a big difference.

Our game at home to tottenham is a great example of it.  We started with a back 3 and had Herd, pretty much, man mark Bale, whilst Clark and Baker player more traditional central defensive roles.  We looked nervous (understandable after Chelsea) but ok and certainly didn't look likely to be on the end of a battering.  Then Baker got injured and we changed our shape.  After that Bale was given loads of space and he punished us for it.  It wasn't due to errors by players or particularly poor performance by anyone, it was that the new shape didn't account for him continuing to play as an inside left (mainly, in my opinion, because he'd been fairly quiet in the first half and Lambert thought we'd be ok).  If you get a chance watch the goals form that game again, the players just didn't know who was supposed to be with him.

Sticking with the same example.  If we'd had a world class defence they'd probably have sorted it out for themselves by adjusting how they played to take up his space.  Even though this isn't a managers decision it's still a tactical realisation that stopping Bale is the key to stopping Tottenham.

[neo_Villan]

Starting today and I can understand why. Needs to be better then he was against West Ham where he looked sluggish. Hopefully a little more sharp today.

[Matt Collins]

I can understand why but I think it's a risk and a mistake.

Very happy to be completely wrong!