Things I've heard on here this season

[PeterWithesShin]

The defence at Chelsea was Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Young. The defence at Newcastle was Dunne, Clark, Warnock, Young.

Not much off our first choice in either game.

The point about the Chelsea game was that many on here were convinced that we'd be better by playing Young instead of Cuellar, we tried it and were a complete shambles. To take that result as representative of our defensive performances for that season is stretching credulity to breaking point.

Under Houllier, first, second, third and fourth choice defences were equally bad. The players were mostly to blame but, as manager, he has to take some of the responsibility.

So you agree that they were actually pretty much our strongest defences in both games rather than we weren't able to play our first choice defence?

And I agree that the manager has to take some of the blame, but not all of the blame as the defence had shown weaknesses from about Feb 2010 onwards. Coincidence that Lambert couldn't wait to bin most of them as well?

[Chris Smith]

I never took you for being this petty, PWS. 

The Chelsea game was an aberration, using it as an illustration is meaningless. We were strong defensively that season, arguing anything else is just a distortion.

I've said all along that we were crap the following season, Houllier didn't create the problem but neither did he do much to fix it.

[Percy McCarthy]

Well, the common denominator in both those performances was this site's defensive saviour, Luke Young.

And I didn't want to take the Chelsea game out of context, but as you did that for me, weren't the defence the best in the country without those seven goals?,

[paul_e]

A big part of the problem for GH was, in my opinion, that some of the players had a different idea regarding suitable fitness levels to him.  I seem to remember seeing a lot of complaints around the time about the players being overtrained.  I think he spent the first few months trying to get the fitness levels up rather than trying to get the tactics right.  It certainly didn't help that he came in with no option but to play what he had.  I think Walker was a good example of what he wanted from players, as his fitness levels were much higher than the rest of the squad and made a big difference to us.

[usav]

I never took you for being this petty, PWS. 

only with you 

[pauliewalnuts]

Surely, if it is unreasonable to take one performance as indicative of our defensive performances across the season, it is similarly unreasonable to be singling out the fact that the defence at Chelsea contained Luke Young as the reason we got spanked?

Maybe the biggest factor in our getting spanked was the fact we were playing away, at one of the strongest teams in the country?

[pauliewalnuts]

An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season.

Looking back, I think he'd decided he couldn't work with the experienced defenders we had, and wanted them out, and that's what the summer comment meant.

If you look at what Lambert has done, he has either moved them on (Warnock, Collins), binned them (Hutton, although I realise he wasn't at the club in Houllier's time) or lost them to injury (Dunne).

Also worth remembering, Lambert sussed the defence at the start of the season, having seen them the year before. Houllier was caught with a defence which, on the basis of the previous year, he thought he could work with, but didn't realise he couldn't till a fair way into the season, by which time, he was stuck for options.

[Ads]

With an injured James Milner.

[PeterWithesShin]

I never took you for being this petty, PWS. 

The Chelsea game was an aberration, using it as an illustration is meaningless. We were strong defensively that season, arguing anything else is just a distortion.

I've said all along that we were crap the following season, Houllier didn't create the problem but neither did he do much to fix it.

Commenting that in about 12 games we conceding 7 in one game and 6 in another is not being petty, it's just pointing out the defence had started showing signs it wasn't all we thought it was before GH was on the scene.
Easy with hindsight and to look back at results, but from about Feb 2010 until now our defence went from decent and just kept getting worse with very little improvement regardless of who was in charge.

Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.

[PeterWithesShin]

An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season.

Looking back, I think he'd decided he couldn't work with the experienced defenders we had, and wanted them out, and that's what the summer comment meant.

If you look at what Lambert has done, he has either moved them on (Warnock, Collins), binned them (Hutton, although I realise he wasn't at the club in Houllier's time) or lost them to injury (Dunne).

Also worth remembering, Lambert sussed the defence at the start of the season, having seen them the year before. Houllier was caught with a defence which, on the basis of the previous year, he thought he could work with, but didn't realise he couldn't till a fair way into the season, by which time, he was stuck for options.

Houllier didn't have much chance to change it early though as he didn't arrive until the summer window was shut. So he was stuck with them whether he rated them or not.

[Mister E]

An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season.

Looking back, I think he'd decided he couldn't work with the experienced defenders we had, and wanted them out, and that's what the summer comment meant.

If you look at what Lambert has done, he has either moved them on (Warnock, Collins), binned them (Hutton, although I realise he wasn't at the club in Houllier's time) or lost them to injury (Dunne).

Also worth remembering, Lambert sussed the defence at the start of the season, having seen them the year before. Houllier was caught with a defence which, on the basis of the previous year, he thought he could work with, but didn't realise he couldn't till a fair way into the season, by which time, he was stuck for options.

Houllier didn't have much chance to change it early though as he didn't arrive until the summer window was shut. So he was stuck with them whether he rated them or not.

And my earlier point was that he could - with a bit of decent coaching - have changed the way that these experienced players defended; he didn't, which to me says he either wasn't able to influence their behaviours sufficiently or he'd decided it wasn't worth the effort.
Either way, he'd certainly decided to offload them all in the close-season.

[Dave]

Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.

But even then they managed to concede five goals as recently as a few weeks ago.

I don't think any of the defences that we're talking about were that catastrophic, but sometimes these results happen.

[Steve R]

I never took you for being this petty, PWS. 

The Chelsea game was an aberration, using it as an illustration is meaningless. We were strong defensively that season, arguing anything else is just a distortion.

I've said all along that we were crap the following season, Houllier didn't create the problem but neither did he do much to fix it.

No distortion Chris, I think it was more a question of overall tactics.

To me that defence was always dodgy. What O'Neill did was shield it with Milner & Petrov's industry in the centre and both wingers - particularly Ashley Young - tracking back. All at a cost of attacking contribution. All that happened in the Chelsea game was a demonstration of how brittle we were when the opposition were allowed to get amongst the back four with regularity.

Houllier tried to play a more expansive game and discovered pretty quickly what the cost was.

McLeish went back to protection mode but no longer had the players to provide the protective shield.

[Matt Collins]

Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.

But even then they managed to concede five goals as recently as a few weeks ago.

I don't think any of the defences that we're talking about were that catastrophic, but sometimes these results happen.

We didn't play a back 5 v city

[Percy McCarthy]

Exactly. Lambert didn't need to change the players. He did it with tactics and coaching, something Houllier had people believing was impossible.