Upper Grounds Pub.

[Brend'Watkins]

The wholesale market isn't just catering for the city of Birmingham it's for all Birmingham and the surrounding areas.  It makes sense to have it at a more logistical location, ie. just off a motorway exit. 

I see no pros for keeping it in the city center and plenty of cons for getting it out of there.

Anyway, save the King Edward first.

[Percy McCarthy]

Re: the library I'm with paulie. The market, I'm not sure. You both make some excellent points but I can't say aye or neigh while the plans seem to be on hold anyway. Still, it's a well-reasoned and informative debate on both sides - well done.

And all stemming from a thread on a defunct boozer where I didn't visit more than half-a-dozen times, more for the old Mod nights than on match days. My fondest memory of the place was when some bully chinned an Arsenal fan after the Yorke chipped penalty game, and in the process knocked over a couple of near-empty glasses on my table. I asked him to replace mine and my missus' drinks and he agreed. 'What were they?' he asked. 'Two double vodka and Red Bulls' I lied.

[Jimbo]

You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...

Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?

But you're talking about creating a food culture with cafes etc etc around the wholesale market. Do you honestly think anyone is going to want to go there and sit around that 70s monstrosity as lorries and vans come and go?

It doesn't need to be in the city centre, it just needs to be near to it. To listen to your argument, it's as if that's the only place it can be.

It depends how they redevelop it. A similar thing happens at Borough Market in London. Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo is far from aesthetically pleasing, and has lorries and fork-lifts darting all over the place, but it has stalls and small outlets selling food.

I think the markets should be centrally located, yes. And I think they should be improved. So far, the council haven't come up with a viable suggestion for relocation. They just want to sell the current site for redevelopment.

[pauliewalnuts]

You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...

Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?

But you're talking about creating a food culture with cafes etc etc around the wholesale market. Do you honestly think anyone is going to want to go there and sit around that 70s monstrosity as lorries and vans come and go?

It doesn't need to be in the city centre, it just needs to be near to it. To listen to your argument, it's as if that's the only place it can be.

It depends how they redevelop it. A similar thing happens at Borough Market in London. Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo is far from aesthetically pleasing, and has lorries and fork-lifts darting all over the place, but it has stalls and small outlets selling food.

I think the markets should be centrally located, yes. And I think they should be improved. So far, the council haven't come up with a viable suggestion for relocation. They just want to sell the current site for redevelopment.

They suggested Witton, which was one the traders accepted.

I honestly don't see how Tokyo and London wholesale markets really show much relevance to what can be done with the Birmingham one. Those two are global cities and global cities have far more options than cities like Brum do.

Of course they want to sell the site for redevelopment, it is in a prime central location. Does the wholesale market need to be there? No. Should it be miles and miles outside the city centre? No. Has anyone suggested it should be? No.

Incidentally, the wholesale market is already surrounded by restaurants - the bull ring bit on one side, and china town / the arcadian at the back. Why hasn't it already taken off as a food location if it's such a viable idea?

[Brend'Watkins]

I don't think for one minute that any Independent Restaurant uses the wholesale market for produce.  It's function is for retail only.  Why would Purnell need a crate of lettuce?  He's always in Asda at Minworth in any case.

[Chris Smith]

I just can't see where the demand is going to come from for cafes and small food outlets at that end of Hurst Street? You need to attract the office workers to make it viable during the day and it's just too far out for most.

[Jimbo]

You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...

Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?

But you're talking about creating a food culture with cafes etc etc around the wholesale market. Do you honestly think anyone is going to want to go there and sit around that 70s monstrosity as lorries and vans come and go?

It doesn't need to be in the city centre, it just needs to be near to it. To listen to your argument, it's as if that's the only place it can be.

It depends how they redevelop it. A similar thing happens at Borough Market in London. Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo is far from aesthetically pleasing, and has lorries and fork-lifts darting all over the place, but it has stalls and small outlets selling food.

I think the markets should be centrally located, yes. And I think they should be improved. So far, the council haven't come up with a viable suggestion for relocation. They just want to sell the current site for redevelopment.

They suggested Witton, which was one the traders accepted.

I honestly don't see how Tokyo and London wholesale markets really show much relevance to what can be done with the Birmingham one. Those two are global cities and global cities have far more options than cities like Brum do.

Of course they want to sell the site for redevelopment, it is in a prime central location. Does the wholesale market need to be there? No. Should it be miles and miles outside the city centre? No. Has anyone suggested it should be? No.

Incidentally, the wholesale market is already surrounded by restaurants - the bull ring bit on one side, and china town / the arcadian at the back. Why hasn't it already taken off as a food location if it's such a viable idea?

They suggested Witton, which now isn't going to happen. So, where next?

There's every reason why Birmingham should look to London and Tokyo's models for inspiration. With a little bit of imagination and vision, the wholesale market could be improved in a similar way. Perhaps not on the same scale, but certainly using a similar model. I'm not the only one who thinks so:

http://ourbirmingham.org/?p=1390

The Bullring restaurants and Chinese quarter restaurants may be nearby, but they are contained within their own areas. When the council announced plans for the new Spiceal Street, I foolishly imagined high-quality street food traders like the ones in Borough Market. Something exciting, with great food and a buzzing atmosphere that would reflect the original Spiceal Street of yore. Instead we got chain restaurants. I suppose at least they can afford the rent.

We could conceivably regenerate the wholesale market area so that the Borough Market-style traders come from around the region to sell their wares here. Create something that will attract people, including tourists, to an area with a thriving wholesale market at the centre. Build on Birmingham's burgeoning reputation for great food.

Or we could perhaps relocate the market to an industrial unit and build hotels / shops that look like they might be in any city in England. 

   

[pauliewalnuts]

They suggested Witton, which now isn't going to happen. So, where next?

I don't know, but they've said nothing is going to happen for between three and five years in any case. I'm sure they'll manage to find somewhere in that timeframe.

There's every reason why Birmingham should look to London and Tokyo's models for inspiration. With a little bit of imagination and vision, the wholesale market could be improved in a similar way. Perhaps not on the same scale, but certainly using a similar model. I'm not the only one who thinks so:
http://ourbirmingham.org/?p=1390

That's a link to a speech given about Borough Market. It might be feasible for London, but that's a totally different kettle of fish.

The Bullring restaurants and Chinese quarter restaurants may be nearby, but they are contained within their own areas. When the council announced plans for the new Spiceal Street, I foolishly imagined high-quality street food traders like the ones in Borough Market. Something exciting, with great food and a buzzing atmosphere that would reflect the original Spiceal Street of yore. Instead we got chain restaurants. I suppose at least they can afford the rent.

We could conceivably regenerate the wholesale market area so that the Borough Market-style traders come from around the region to sell their wares here. Create something that will attract people, including tourists, to an area with a thriving wholesale market at the centre. Build on Birmingham's burgeoning reputation for great food.

Or we could perhaps relocate the market to an industrial unit and build hotels / shops that look like they might be in any city in England. 

Yes, but that's the point isn't it - that's all they need to be, they're there to shift large quantities of food to trade customers. They're not a place where the man on the street goes to buy fresh food for lunch, and I'm afraid they never will be.

They're never going to be like Borough Market or the one in Tokyo because London and Tokyo have the tens of millions of residents and tourists to make those things feasible. Birmingham does not. They are such different cases, you can't even begin to compare them.

[Percy McCarthy]

Perhaps we should get the big projects done first, then maybe if that generates the necessary increase in vistors, more imaginitave retail will follow on the back of that.

[dave.woodhall]

Birmingham city centre has a farmers market; possibly the smallest I know of because there's no call for it. That shows me a Borough-type idea would fail.

[Jimbo]

They suggested Witton, which now isn't going to happen. So, where next?

I don't know, but they've said nothing is going to happen for between three and five years in any case. I'm sure they'll manage to find somewhere in that timeframe.

There's every reason why Birmingham should look to London and Tokyo's models for inspiration. With a little bit of imagination and vision, the wholesale market could be improved in a similar way. Perhaps not on the same scale, but certainly using a similar model. I'm not the only one who thinks so:
http://ourbirmingham.org/?p=1390

That's a link to a speech given about Borough Market. It might be feasible for London, but that's a totally different kettle of fish.

The Bullring restaurants and Chinese quarter restaurants may be nearby, but they are contained within their own areas. When the council announced plans for the new Spiceal Street, I foolishly imagined high-quality street food traders like the ones in Borough Market. Something exciting, with great food and a buzzing atmosphere that would reflect the original Spiceal Street of yore. Instead we got chain restaurants. I suppose at least they can afford the rent.

We could conceivably regenerate the wholesale market area so that the Borough Market-style traders come from around the region to sell their wares here. Create something that will attract people, including tourists, to an area with a thriving wholesale market at the centre. Build on Birmingham's burgeoning reputation for great food.

Or we could perhaps relocate the market to an industrial unit and build hotels / shops that look like they might be in any city in England. 

Yes, but that's the point isn't it - that's all they need to be, they're there to shift large quantities of food to trade customers. They're not a place where the man on the street goes to buy fresh food for lunch, and I'm afraid they never will be.

They're never going to be like Borough Market or the one in Tokyo because London and Tokyo have the tens of millions of residents and tourists to make those things feasible. Birmingham does not. They are such different cases, you can't even begin to compare them.

Well, let's see what they plan to do about the proposed relocation.

I'm not trying to compare Birmingham to London or Tokyo. I'm saying that we could learn a thing or two from them.

The link refers to a speech in which Borough Market is upheld as an example to other markets / cities.

Is this one really too small and parochial to have a thriving food quarter based around a working wholesale market? Maybe, maybe not. But I look at some of the huge blunders the council has made in the past. I look at proposals to demolish such buildings as the King Edward. And I wonder if the council is really examining all the options before plunging ahead with schemes that will bring in the most money.

[Jimbo]

Perhaps we should get the big projects done first, then maybe if that generates the necessary increase in vistors, more imaginitave retail will follow on the back of that.

Good point.

[pauliewalnuts]

Is this one really too small and parochial to have a thriving food quarter based around a working wholesale market? Maybe, maybe not. But I look at some of the huge blunders the council has made in the past. I look at proposals to demolish such buildings as the King Edward. And I wonder if the council is really examining all the options before plunging ahead with schemes that will bring in the most money.

To suggest that the council's main aim is to fill their own coffers seems a little bit extreme.

Ultimately, the council's main job is to create wealth and prosperity for the city and the people who live in it. That's not a charter to demolish everything, but that's their job.

If there's an argument that the KE has some kind of architectural merit, then that has to be balanced against the prosperity that industry or business could create in that location.

I guess that is subjective too. To one of us who likes to go for a pint there pre or post match, we'd value the retention of the pub much higher than, say, a muslim family who live nearby, who never use the pub, and who have unemployed children who'd love there to be jobs created in their area.

I'd also suggest that the council negotiating with the owner of the KE to move his business to the old Aston Tavern suggest that they're making efforts to please as many people as they can rather than it being all about the money.

[myf]

What bothers me about this is that the land is required for highway improvements. i totally understand the aspiration of BCC to deliver regeneration and employment but  i can't help thinking of many of the recent highway improvement schemes in the city which i think have been over engineered/unnecessary- moor street, selly oar/QE, northfield, longbridge.

[olaftab]

Perhaps we should get the big projects done first, then maybe if that generates the necessary increase in vistors, more imaginitave retail will follow on the back of that.

Good point.

Double good point.