Have we been in denial?

[saunders_heroes]

Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.

I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there.  It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.

Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.

Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.

i thought we were worse when we played the more experienced players,
 Hutton, Heskey, Gabby, Dunne, Warnock, and even Collins for long periods of the season, have all been all very average and certainly no better than then younger palyers that have had to be brought in

I disagree. We were bad enough earlier in the season with the experienced players in the team but at least we were picking up the odd result. The latter part of the season when it's been mainly kids has been nothing short of an abomination.
We ridiculously overrate our kids, and Lerner fell for it hook line and sinker.

[VillaAlways]

Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.

I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there.  It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.

Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.

Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.

Dragging us down? Saving us more like.Why don't you look at who has been scoring our goals

[saunders_heroes]

Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.

I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there.  It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.

Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.

Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.

Dragging us down? Saving us more like.Why don't you look at who has been scoring our goals

What goals? Last time I looked we were the second lowest scorers after the pitiful Wolves

[VillaAlways]

Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.

I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there.  It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.

Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.

Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.

Dragging us down? Saving us more like.Why don't you look at who has been scoring our goals

What goals? Last time I looked we were the second lowest scorers after the pitiful Wolves

Since the injury crisis and the kids have been drafted in.Have a look who has been scoring the goals and think about where we would have been if Weimann hadn't scrambled in that last minute winner against Fulham and against Stoke.Herd put us in front at L'pool and Lichaj dragged us back into the game against Chelsea.To say that the kids are dragging us down isn't really fair.

[paul_e]

What an odd argument, lets blame the 19-22 year olds who are working their arses off to save our season after watching 25games of the experienced players putting us in a position where every game is high pressure.

Our kids are very good, they've been consistently good at all levels up until the first team against young players from other teams, many of whom are worse but are now involved in their first team and are doing ok.  What we need to question is the ability of the senior players to provide guidance and the ability of the coaching/management to transition players into the first team.

Lets use Albrighton as an example.  We know there's raw talent there, he's had half a season of being electric, when played as a right winger and asked to get outside his man and whip it across.  Since then he's been moved to play deeper and on the other side of the pitch and now the internet is full of Villa fans calling for him to be dropped and saying he's not good enough for the premier league.

Another example, Ciaran Clark is regarded as a very very good young central defender but we've only seen him in midfield, despite times where Dunne and Collins were so woefully out of form that we may as well have given the opposition a 2 goal start.

As Monty has said on one of the threads recently McLeish has a habit of associating 'experienced' with 'good' so when he has had the choice between youth and experience he has almost every time gone for experience, regardless of form or ability.

There is enough talent through the youth and reserves that we can build the squad around it.  Add 4-5 experienced players with the right attitude into the mix and keep hold of the senior players who are willing to knuckle down, whilst getting rid of the worst of the journeymen and we could easily 'do a newcastle'.

[Greg N'Ash]

Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.

[damon loves JT]

Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.

It's a damning indictment when you fail to beat the gregnash crapness spread.

[Greg N'Ash]

Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.

It's a damning indictment when you fail to beat the gregnash crapness spread.

heh. Well he's had injuries (i know, i know) but even so i'd say 4 points better off at this stage would have been there abouts. His main fault is he's bought some lousy replacements in Hutton and 'the Wigan player' and when your skint like us you can't afford to write off 15m in bad signings.

[woody4866]

What an odd argument, lets blame the 19-22 year olds who are working their arses off to save our season after watching 25games of the experienced players putting us in a position where every game is high pressure.

Our kids are very good, they've been consistently good at all levels up until the first team against young players from other teams, many of whom are worse but are now involved in their first team and are doing ok.  What we need to question is the ability of the senior players to provide guidance and the ability of the coaching/management to transition players into the first team.

Lets use Albrighton as an example.  We know there's raw talent there, he's had half a season of being electric, when played as a right winger and asked to get outside his man and whip it across.  Since then he's been moved to play deeper and on the other side of the pitch and now the internet is full of Villa fans calling for him to be dropped and saying he's not good enough for the premier league.

Another example, Ciaran Clark is regarded as a very very good young central defender but we've only seen him in midfield, despite times where Dunne and Collins were so woefully out of form that we may as well have given the opposition a 2 goal start.

As Monty has said on one of the threads recently McLeish has a habit of associating 'experienced' with 'good' so when he has had the choice between youth and experience he has almost every time gone for experience, regardless of form or ability.

There is enough talent through the youth and reserves that we can build the squad around it.  Add 4-5 experienced players with the right attitude into the mix and keep hold of the senior players who are willing to knuckle down, whilst getting rid of the worst of the journeymen and we could easily 'do a newcastle'.

I agree with this - however it has the caviat of WHO will bring in the experienced players??

[old man villa fan]

Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.

I think it was clear that the end of last season we were an improving side.  The manager knew that he would be losing Ashley Young and that money had already been spent on Bent.  He knew that he would have around £17m to replace A Young, Downing, Walker, Friedel and L Young.

It was clear to me (and should have been blindingly obvious to the manager), that the basis of the squad would be young talent, to which he had to add experienced pros in key positions.  Other than goalkeeper, the key area that needed experienced players was central midfield.

Unlike the year before when the team was on the slide (which I am sure MON recognised), this season was the opposite so how the season has gone is a sad reflection of the ability of the manager, in my opinion.

We are left at the end of the season with some good young players and a couple of good experienced players but in desperate need of the right type players to be brought in to fill key positions so that they not only perform but also help in the development of the young players.  McLeish did not see this last preseason so what are the chances this coming preseason.  On top of this, will the pussy cat change his spots regarding method of play, I don't think so.

We are not top six but we are certainly not bottom six, with the players we have.  My worry is that if he stays, he will try and wheel and deal in transfer market with the net effect of more players but with less quality which will continue the downward spiral.

[Irish villain]

I don't think anybody's in denial. Let's look at things for a second.

Last season we underachieved for most of the season, yet still managed ninth. On paper, last year should have been another top six finish. Ok, losing Milner was a huge blow, but losing MON (and being knocked out of Europe) should have meant  more squad rotation and the chance to overcome the usual end of season dip in form that used to cost us a top four finish. Now as we know, Houllier was unlucky with injuries but he still under performed with the resources at his disposal. As far as I'm concerned, the 2010-11 squad (particularly after the addition of Darren Bent in January) was a top six side that underachieved and was badly managed. That's essentially the way things stood the day Houllier left. There was problems, not least the need to sell players to balance the books, but we were poised to remain mid-table as we rebuilt under the right manager.

Under McLeish, the boards decision to sell key players without adequately replacing them was a major blow to the squad. In my estimation, it not however leave us facing a relegation battle. N'Zogbia, in my view, wasn't really an adequate replacement for either Downing or Young, but was still a decent Premier League Player. I thought Shay Given might actually improve us at the back. With the youngsters having had a season under their belt, and with Ireland and N'Zogbia feeding Bent for a whole season, I felt our squad was good enough to finish anywhere between 8th-12th. Then we'd be nicely positioned to strengthen the following summer and make an assault on the top six again.

However, the negative tactics employed by the manager have choked us. We didn't pick up enough points when it mattered.   Surrender and playing for a draw became the order of the day. We all knew bent was isolated up front in the first few months. There was no attacking plan. Spurs away, United at home and Man City at home were pathetic displays as was Swansea away to a lesser extent. McLeish, like his predecessor has not maximised his resources. That is a (very) comfortable mid-table squad that has ended up fighting relegation with four games to go.

That is grounds for dismissal as far as I'm concerned.

[villasjf]

Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.

I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there.  It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.

Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.

Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.

Its not the kids who have let us down but the more experienced pros. Edit Together with the owner, the board the manager and PG.

[eamonn]

Agreed with IrishVillain.

I think it's the full back area that's killed us this season.
Young was solid and Walker was dynamic and dangerous going forward (if a bit naive defensively at times). Warnock, despite showing strength of character lately, has been really poor for a lot of the season. Hutton, distinctly average and a liability at diving in at tricky wingers. When you consider full-backs are much more important in the modern game than previously it's a major handicap when they are not up to scratch.

Young and to a lesser extent Downing have been big losses but it was McLeish's job, after blowing most of the transfer kitty on N'Zog, to get him playing like he did at Wigan last season on a consistent basis. He's failed miserably on that count. We have also in effect gained a quality attacking player this season in Ireland who, like Warnock was out in the cold previously and he's been the one touch of quality in our midfield all season.

Bringing in sick-note Jenas for Makoun is another deal that has bitten him on the arse.

Injuries have cost us the last couple of months but even prior to that McLeish was not getting the best out of the players.

I look at Newcastle who also sold their best 3 players over the past two years and look where they are now. They've over-achieved hugely, we've done the complete opposite. Top half, parity with last season, in McLeish's words in August ''to emulate last season'' was the reasonable aim and expectation this season and we have failed miserably.

[claret and blue blood]

Its not just on the forums......where I sit in Trinity block B there are people that just can't wait to start moaning every game...one bloke in particular....every time a pass goes astray or someone makes a genuine mistake he unleashes a torrent of abuse.   I turned round and stared at him yesterday and he asked me what I was looking at....I said that I was just checking to see that he was actually a Villa fan.

I sit in that block. About five of them behind me never stop moaning and never give any encouragement. We are going  'come on Villa!' and trying to give them some backing. That lot behind piss me off and I am glad we are moving next year. That said, I thought our crowd were almost Millwall-like at times yesterday, with some real hostility to the opposition and match officials. Long may it continue. When the chips are down, you get to the hardcore support.

That is the right attitude, we sat in the Doug Ellis Lower towards the Holte and I was impressed with the support for the team from the Holte End. It's all we can do now SUPPORT THE TEAM

[tomd2103]

Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.

Agree with this.  I think the youngsters have been talked up by people at the club and Lerner believed the hype.  Hopefully he has seen this season that relying on those players is going to end up in relegation and acts accordingly in the summer.  I genuinely believed in the summer that we should finish mid table and maybe in the top ten if we had a good season.  If (and it is a big if) we had been able to turn the draws at home against Everton, Stoke, QPR and Sunderland into wins then we would have been in that position.