The Grand National 2012

[pauliewalnuts]

You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

I'm pretty sure the idea of horse racing is not to kill the horses.

Of course you can't compare it with fox hunting.

Comparing the National to boxing is a bit dimwitted, for obvious reasons, but comparing it to fox hunting is even wider of the mark.

[Somniloquism]

Here are a list of fatalities at the Grand National.

In the last 10 years the deaths have been twice the average of all other Steeple Chases. The breakdown of deaths by fence is the most interesting figure. A third of all deaths have occurred at only one fence (Beechers obviously.) So one fence removed and it would be a less blood thirsty event. I'm sure that the fence would have been removed/ changed if it was jockeys and not horses dying due to injuries sustained in the event.

[Dave Cooper please]

You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

The comparison to fox hunting is valid in that the argument about how banning it would put loads of people out of work and animals (in this case hounds as well as horses) would be put down as they were no longer needed.
But fox hunting DID get banned, so what did they do? They adapted the sport so they could still ride around the countryside in silly clothes blowing horns but foxes (or less foxes at least) no longer die in horrible circumstances.

So we adapt the Grand National and all similar races to minimise the chance of horse getting crippled and dying. No one is out of work, the races are still run, but far less horses die.

[OzVilla]

I'm not a racing fan but particularly dislike the Grand National.   

Should have been stopped years ago imo.

[Nev]

From a comitted jumps fan I detest the National, the biggest spotlight the sport has all year and it always generates such negative publicity. A 40 horse lottery, half a mile too long where the fences are too big and the skill of the jockey and talent of the horse comes secondary to luck. All played out in front of an audience of screeching, attention seeking paralytic idiots with appalling dress sense who wouldn't know one end of a horse from the other.

Anyway, West End Rocker.

I was so angry after yesterdays race because it was (like our the season we're having) so predictable. Racing For Change work so hard to promote the sport but while the National is still run in it's present form they might as well not bother. The industry has a duty of care to it's participants and this gives the impression that it doesn't take it seriously. That couldn't be further from the truth but the perception of racing for the majority of the public is based on the events of the National.

It has to change.

[taylorsworkrate]

Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

Ban Boxing?

People have been paralysed playing Rugby. Ban Rugby?

Say if, in just one football or rugby match a year, they made it much harder than usual by having someone on the side with an iron bar trying to break the players legs, would you think that was okay? The Grand National is popular because the horses are jumping bigger fences and running a longer distance than almost any other race, but this means they are killing horses who are breaking legs or becoming utterly exhausted, all in the name of making it a spectacle and hoping we spend huge amounts betting on it.

 As for boxing, well boxers know the risk and don't have to step into the ring, the horses don't get that choice. Yes I know the horses are bred to race and obviously enjoy it or they wouldn't jump the fences, but you can't tell me that the horse knows the risks!

I totally agree with your sentiments about the Grand National, as shown in my earlier post. I don't believe the race has any sort of credibility. The National doesn't reflect well on racing to the wider public when things like this occur.

Horse racing in general though has done a hell of a lot regarding the safety of horses, and fatalities over the course of the year are extremely rare (the cross country race at Cheltenham is another race that should be banned however, as they can't water the course properly). It annoys me when people take isolated incidents like the race yesterday to tar the whole sport with the same brush. (not saying thats what your doing)

I will say one thing about Rugby though. There is a hell of a lot of danger in the setting of every scrum, no matter how well it is officiated.

[taylorsworkrate]

You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

I'm pretty sure the idea of horse racing is not to kill the horses.

Of course you can't compare it with fox hunting.

Comparing the National to boxing is a bit dimwitted, for obvious reasons, but comparing it to fox hunting is even wider of the mark.

Not really, considering the early context of the thread.

People were being castigated for trying to win money / enjoying the national at the expense of the horses (something with which I agree).

Then surely its comparable with Boxing, where people enjoy the sport and some try to win money whilst watching people attempt with all their force to seriously injure each other.

[taylorsworkrate]

From a comitted jumps fan I detest the National, the biggest spotlight the sport has all year and it always generates such negative publicity. A 40 horse lottery, half a mile too long where the fences are too big and the skill of the jockey and talent of the horse comes secondary to luck. All played out in front of an audience of screeching, attention seeking paralytic idiots with appalling dress sense who wouldn't know one end of a horse from the other.

Anyway, West End Rocker.

I was so angry after yesterdays race because it was (like our the season we're having) so predictable. Racing For Change work so hard to promote the sport but while the National is still run in it's present form they might as well not bother. The industry has a duty of care to it's participants and this gives the impression that it doesn't take it seriously. That couldn't be further from the truth but the perception of racing for the majority of the public is based on the events of the National.

It has to change.

100% spot on.

[bob]

surely you have to ban particular races that have a history of fatalities?

That would be all horse racing then.

Hard to disagree. If they are going to cancel whole TV series because of safety concerns involving the horses, it's hard to see the justification in horse racing.

How does the inadequate care of horses used by a television studio relate to the wellbeing of horses trained for racing?

However with the Grand National I tend to agree. It's a decent handicap race at best and the chances of a horse losing is life is astronomical compared to other races.

The chances are higher due to the bigger fences, but they are not "astronomical" in comparison.

I understand the point about horses not choosing to race and it is a valid one. There are many risks in life and they need to be weighed up against the positives of horse breeding, training, care and quality of life that race horses have, which I believe there are many.

I'm not going to try and change anyone's opinion. I don't think it's a simple decision.

[Somniloquism]

surely you have to ban particular races that have a history of fatalities?

That would be all horse racing then.

Hard to disagree. If they are going to cancel whole TV series because of safety concerns involving the horses, it's hard to see the justification in horse racing.

How does the inadequate care of horses used by a television studio relate to the wellbeing of horses trained for racing?

However with the Grand National I tend to agree. It's a decent handicap race at best and the chances of a horse losing is life is astronomical compared to other races.

The chances are higher due to the bigger fences, but they are not "astronomical" in comparison.

I understand the point about horses not choosing to race and it is a valid one. There are many risks in life and they need to be weighed up against the positives of horse breeding, training, care and quality of life that race horses have, which I believe there are many.

I'm not going to try and change anyone's opinion. I don't think it's a simple decision.

As I posted earlier, a 3rd of all injuries that lead to deaths occur at Beechers. (including the two yesterday). Remove that fence and it becomes less of a death race. Yet they won't because it is 'iconic' and until people stop betting on it because of the fatalities, they don't have any incentive to.

[olaftab]

I understand 5 horses were killed during the so call Cheltenham Festival. I wonder if horses regard it as such!
After yesterday's losses it is unthinkable that we would carry on with this so called "sport". Surely we would not if it were human beings suffering bad injuries let alone death?

[curlytailavfc]

theres been more horse's die at the national than people at hilsborough and thats rammed down ya throat at every f.a. cup game

[Nev]

theres been more horse's die at the national than people at hilsborough and thats rammed down ya throat at every f.a. cup game

No there hasn't.

[paul_e]

Playing advocate for a moment, should we ban football after what happened to Muamba and Piermario Morosini?

Ban Boxing?

People have been paralysed playing Rugby. Ban Rugby?

Say if, in just one football or rugby match a year, they made it much harder than usual by having someone on the side with an iron bar trying to break the players legs, would you think that was okay? The Grand National is popular because the horses are jumping bigger fences and running a longer distance than almost any other race, but this means they are killing horses who are breaking legs or becoming utterly exhausted, all in the name of making it a spectacle and hoping we spend huge amounts betting on it.

 As for boxing, well boxers know the risk and don't have to step into the ring, the horses don't get that choice. Yes I know the horses are bred to race and obviously enjoy it or they wouldn't jump the fences, but you can't tell me that the horse knows the risks!

I totally agree with your sentiments about the Grand National, as shown in my earlier post. I don't believe the race has any sort of credibility. The National doesn't reflect well on racing to the wider public when things like this occur.

Horse racing in general though has done a hell of a lot regarding the safety of horses, and fatalities over the course of the year are extremely rare (the cross country race at Cheltenham is another race that should be banned however, as they can't water the course properly). It annoys me when people take isolated incidents like the race yesterday to tar the whole sport with the same brush. (not saying thats what your doing)

I will say one thing about Rugby though. There is a hell of a lot of danger in the setting of every scrum, no matter how well it is officiated.

Erm... really?  At professional level the number of injuries based purely around the scrum are so low as to be almost negligible.  Personally I played at a decent standard for 10 years and in the entire time I've never seen an injury from being in the scrum.  The only thing that you can argue against scrums is that, after 15-20 years of playing at a high level a small percentage of front five players will develop back and neck problems.

Back on track, take out beechers, miss out a couple of other fences (and make sure all of them are shorter and narrower) to get it down to 20 jumps and knock at least half a mile off the length of the race and the national will be fine and can carry on being the iconic race that the bookies love, in it's current state it's far too dangerous and isn't an interesting race in the slightest.

[pauliewalnuts]

You cannot compare it with fox hunting; fox hutning is barbaric with the idea of the whole thing to slaughter some poor defenseless animal.

I'm pretty sure the idea of horse racing is not to kill the horses.

Of course you can't compare it with fox hunting.

Comparing the National to boxing is a bit dimwitted, for obvious reasons, but comparing it to fox hunting is even wider of the mark.

Not really, considering the early context of the thread.

People were being castigated for trying to win money / enjoying the national at the expense of the horses (something with which I agree).

Then surely its comparable with Boxing, where people enjoy the sport and some try to win money whilst watching people attempt with all their force to seriously injure each other.

The difference is that boxing is participated in by human beings who are aware of the risks and choose to do so. Horses don't really have much say in the matter.

With fox hunting, the death of the fox (and the sheer terror up to that death) are the whole point of the sport.