Return of O'Neill - divided opinion

[Handsworth Wood Villa]

I'm one of those that have always believed that Villa have the potential to draw in 50-60k every game if run well over several years.  That's based on our catchment area,  lack of heavyweight local rivals within 80-100 miles, etc.

For that to happen I think we would have to become properly good in a Chelsea/ Man City way so that we could convert gloryhunters in Birmingham to become Villa fans.

For example, I'm sure there are Stoke fans in Stoke who go to the Britannia who used to support Man Utd 5 years ago.

Likewise with Swansea, Wigan etc.

[ktvillan]

I honestly don't know how much of the "If only we were better run/more successful" idea is unique to us and how many other clubs could say exactly the same. What I do know is that Villa have a massive proportion of passive fans to active supporters and I've always said that whoever can crack the problem of getting them into the ground will have done more than anyone else ever has. Randy got closer than most; we'll have to see what happens in the future.

I'm sure it's not unique to us and I would guess that Newcastle fans used to say similar Pre-Keegan.  And it's  probably as true of us as it was of them back then.  The catalyst for their crowd figures to take off again, after 35-40 years in the doldrums, was the entertaining football combined with good results that Keegan brought in.  Arsenal's fan base has similarly taken a step change,  based on a sustained period of success and some superb entertainment.  We've never really had the chance to see what the effect of those two factors could have on Villa gates.  The relative on-field "success" of O'Neill initially took our gates above the 40 k mark a few seasons ago before it all went pear shaped.  I'd wager the drop-off after that has something to do with the poor entertainment on offer and the failure to build on progess with some genuine BOS players.

[Merv]

O'Neill's return... worth a read (although I did write it, so...)

http://tiny.cc/je31cw

[ktvillan]

We weren't exactly successful either, merely competent, and only exceeding what Gregory and O'Leary had managed by being more consistent at reaching 6th place. But with loads of money spent.

I have no facts to back this up and it's nothing more than a feeling, but I'd say in comparison with what other teams were spending Gregory would have been spending similar levels to O'Neill.

On transfer fees alone, you possibly have a point, he spent big on Merson, Stone, Dublin, Balaban and a few others.  But I wonder if wages were anywhere near 80% of turnover back then? a And his performance of 7th, 6th, 6th , 8th and 8th and anFA Cup Final compare reaonably well with O'Neill's 11th and 3x 6th place cna cup performances.

Gregory was with us for 3 seasons, not 5.

3 full seasons and two half seasons. Joined Feb 1998, could take some credit for our 7th place,  left January 2002, could take some credit for our 8th place.  Full seasons 98-99, 99-00, 00-01.

[Rick_avfc]

O'Neill's return... worth a read (although I did write it, so...)

http://tiny.cc/je31cw

I quite enjoyed that read.

[dave.woodhall]

I honestly don't know how much of the "If only we were better run/more successful" idea is unique to us and how many other clubs could say exactly the same. What I do know is that Villa have a massive proportion of passive fans to active supporters and I've always said that whoever can crack the problem of getting them into the ground will have done more than anyone else ever has. Randy got closer than most; we'll have to see what happens in the future.

I'm sure it's not unique to us and I would guess that Newcastle fans used to say similar Pre-Keegan.  And it's  probably as true of us as it was of them back then.  The catalyst for their crowd figures to take off again, after 35-40 years in the doldrums, was the entertaining football combined with good results that Keegan brought in.  Arsenal's fan base has similarly taken a step change,  based on a sustained period of success and some superb entertainment.  We've never really had the chance to see what the effect of those two factors could have on Villa gates.  The relative on-field "success" of O'Neill initially took our gates above the 40 k mark a few seasons ago before it all went pear shaped.  I'd wager the drop-off after that has something to do with the poor entertainment on offer and the failure to build on progess with some genuine BOS players.

What you say is undoubtedly true, although both those clubs have unique advantages, namely that Geordie Bloody Nation nonsense and one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. I dread to think how many of an Arsenal crowd are here on holiday.

[Risso]

We've had crowds of 40K under Ellis, notably under Brian Little.  When the Birmingham public can see a bit of belief and desire in the team, they end to drag their arses along.  The trick is sustaining it, which nobody has managed to do.

[pauliewalnuts]

We've had crowds of 40K under Ellis, notably under Brian Little.  When the Birmingham public can see a bit of belief and desire in the team, they end to drag their arses along.  The trick is sustaining it, which nobody has managed to do.

I'd say that's about right.

The way football is these days, it is clubs like us and Everton that are in the most awkward situation.

Big enough to be in the PL constantly, big enough and with enough history for fans to have memories of winning big things, and ambitions to do so again,  but almost impossible to actually win anything of note.

Then you have promoted teams with the excitement of being in the PL, who will fill their grounds, and teams genuinely competing at the top, who have the extra bonus of CL football for their supporters.

It is the hardest sell for those clubs like us, stuck not good enough or rich enough to be in the CL, but not poor enough to be relegated.

One hopes.

[dave.woodhall]

We've never had a problem getting big gates for big games, but the trick is to get them along next week when we play Bolton or Wigan.

[Risso]

The other point to remember is that it must have been apparent fairly quickly that we were probably never going to be getting 50K crowds in the near future, all paying top whack.  So that being the case, why did Lerner continue to sanction a level of spending that was completely unsustainable given the likely income?  Even if we had achieved Champions League qualification one year, that's a building block towards future expansion.  It's not like qualifying in 4th waves a magic wand and improves your income by £50m a year for three years.

[Concrete John]

With the Newcastle example, you have to remember that with the attacking football and cult like status of Keegan, their chairman at the time (name escapes me right now) also invested heavily into the club.

I do feel for Randy in terms of attendances during the MON years.  Large investment in the squad and infrastructure, a (mostly) winning team and we still failed to sell out on a regular basis. 

As Dave says above, cracking that problem is the difference that could take us into regular contention at the top of the league.

[pauliewalnuts]

I do feel for Randy in terms of attendances during the MON years.  Large investment in the squad and infrastructure, a (mostly) winning team and we still failed to sell out on a regular basis.

I'd say an average of 40k in 2008 involved selling out fairly regularly.

And we never really played consistently well at home. We only won more than half our home games once under MON, and in his last two seasons, were amongst the lowest scorers at home in the league.

[PeterWithesShin]

I believe the potential is there. THAT season under MON, just before THOSE games in Moscow and at home to Stoke we played Wigan at home. Finished 0-0 despite us battering them, but i'm sure the crowd was over 41K with the usual Wigan support of a few hundred. Probably the only Villa game in my adult time (after 1986) where there were over 40K of Villa fans inside VP.

If we can pull in 40K of home fans for Wigan at home in a season all we were doing was fighting for 4th, then if we regularly challenging you'd assume we'd be capable of higher.

[pauliewalnuts]

Here are our home crowds for 2007-8.

Plenty of sell outs and near sell outs here. This in a season where we'd just finished 11th, and were showing a bit of ambition for the first time in ages.

Wigan      42640
Birmingham   42584
Bolton      37773
Sunderland   42640
Middlesbrough   39874
Newcastle   42640
Blackburn           39602
Reading           32288
Tottenham   41609
Manchr City   41455
Portsmouth   35790
Arsenal            42018
Derby County   40938
Manchr United   42640
West Ham      40842
Everton      38235
Chelsea      37714
Fulham      36638
Liverpool   42640

You can't really judge so much by this season's attendances, but next season's will be absolutely shocking if this bloke stays in his job.

[Rick_avfc]

I wonder why the attendance for the Reading game was so low compared to the others?