Aston Villa v Everton Post-Match Thread

[old man villa fan]

McLeish is like a rabbit in the headlights, paralysed by fear of losing.  If he does not break out of this frame of mind, there is only one way it is going to end and that is with us sliding nearer and nearer the relegation zone.

However, he has not been helped by being left with neandertal defence brought in by MON.  The basis of that defence, Cuellar, Collins and Dunne are just stoppers with no ball playing ability in any of them.  It worked well for MON as he had match winners in front of the defence but was the main reason why we could go no higher than 6th.

Houllier saw straight away that he needed pace or natural ability at fullback and went for the inexperienced but pacey Walker.  Where he lacked for in experience he more than made up for it with pace to get out of difficult situations.  Hutton just does not match up to this and, although I believe he puts the effort in, he is not up to this level of football.  The reason I say this is the blatant fouls he resorts to at times.  They are crude and belong at a lower level of football.  He was lucky to get away with pulling back Saha yesterday.

Warnock - where do you start with him.  I do not think I have ever seen a player deteriorate so much over such a short period of time.  Again, he seems to be putting the effort in but is an error waiting to happen.  Looking at the number of times he goes down with shin injuries I wonder if he has a serious condition that will see him retiring from football very early.  Early in his career he suffered a couple of broken bone injuries and you have to wonder if he has the strength in his body for the rigours of top flight football.

Where we are really struggling is to bring both Ireland and Bent into the game and use them where they are the most effective.  This I believe is down to formation and where the manager sees our attacks developing from.  Villa have always played down the flanks and McLeish has continued to do the same.  In modern day football, if you do not have real pace out wide it is easy to defend against.  It is a bit like rugby in a way where the defence drifts across and pushes the attack wider and wider to the point where they are hemmed in against the touchline.  How many times do we see Hutton and Albrighton or Warnock and Gabby (or A.N. Other) tight for space down the wings and end up having to turn and play the ball back to Petrov (somebody earlier likened him to Ray Wilkins - the original crab) who rarely takes the initiative of the senior pro in the team to drive on and inevitably plays the easy ball back to Dunne of Collins.

We have to have an alternative to this as we are so predictable.  We have to build more through the middle of the pitch but for this you need somebody with drive and determination and I am afraid Petrov is not that player.  If we do build through the middle you will see Ireland and Bent become far more effective.  Ireland is looking as though he really wants to play and his confidence is returning but, as others have said, he is wasted out wide.  The additional benefit of building through the middle is that it pulls the opposition players in and leads to space out wide.  You could see yesterday when Keane came on and how he dropped deep to try and encourage the players to play the ball through the middle and stood there in disbelief when they didn't.

We missed a great opportunity at Bristol to try something different for at least part of the game.  We are now in the situation where we have to get something out of nearly every game and so McLeish will try and play a tighter and tighter game to the point where our goals will dry up completely (if they haven't already).  He will pick the same experienced players as he thinks that this is his best option.

As soon as Herd is fit I would have him in at right back as he looks as though he could be good in that position and also he is very strong in the air.  The left back position is a major concern and I do not believe Clark is the right player as his abilities will be wasted and his weaknesses exposed.  Although I have always considered Lichaj a right back I think he has played there for USA so may be an option.

Centre midfield is a major concern as we lack anybody that currently plays with drive to go box to box.  I think McLeish saw this and this was why he brought in Jenas.  If so, and if he thought it a problem at the beginning of the season, why the f** has he not replaced him in this transfer window, even with another loan player as we are still deficient in this area.  I would be seriously tempted to bring Gardner in, regardless of his inexperience.

Formation is a difficult one with the players we have.  Some say go 4-5-1 but IMO we are far too slow to support the one up top.  4-4-2 and we are too flat and get passed around in the middle.  4-2-3-1 is too negative at home as again we are too slow to support the front man.

I would go with a diamond formation of Clark infront of the defence, Gardner and Petrov (only for his experience) the two in the middle and Ireland at the point.  I would then have Gabby and Bent up front.  For this to work, Dunne and Collins have to play the ball to Clark or one of the middle two dropping off rather than sending it sailing over their heads.  N'Zogbia or Albrighton (and Keane until he goes back) to be used from the bench but not 10 minutes from the end but after say 60 minutes to change the style and use other substitutes to maintain energy levels.

I may be talking crap but I am sure it cannot be any worse than where we are going at the present.

[Legion]

Match highlights

[JUAN PABLO]

We started brightly but faded after 15 minutes but then picked up again for the 10 minutes before half time and carried that on until they equalised. We scored after a period of constant pressure andt hen started playing some lovely stuff but then ave away a really soft goal.

Albrighton was the weak link today going forward, wasted so much possession and yet his name gets mindlessly chanted. He should have been taken off but you can guess what the reaction would have been.

Warnock seems to have lost the plot, he's not a crap player but he's awful at the moment.

Must mention Ireland, looked a class above anyone else on the pitch today. We need to get players on the same wavelength to make the most of his his touch, vision and movement.

spot on ..   I cant believe Marc was still on the pitch , he needed changing after 65 minutes .  The thing that frustrated me  how our players don't get into space for the ball or when one wants the ball , raising his hands in the air (keane ) no one gives it to him .       

[Boz]

Note the difference between Moyes and McLeish, one starts with two players who've just joined the club, AM has someone for 6 weeks costing £500K plus insurance and brings him on for the last 10minutes, typical low risk management style which is going to get us relegated.

Sunday Express reckons McLeish has asked Liverpool about a swap Carroll for Bent but been turned down. Anyone understand the logic for this, as no money was mentioned?

[berneboy]

McLeish is like a rabbit in the headlights, paralysed by fear of losing.  If he does not break out of this frame of mind, there is only one way it is going to end and that is with us sliding nearer and nearer the relegation zone.

However, .................

I may be talking crap but I am sure it cannot be any worse than where we are going at the present.

You should be employed as McL's adviser! Or maybe take over yourself.

Brilliant analysis.

[WALTERS WARRIORS]

I can honestly say this is not the managers fault. Except for signing Hutton who is a very limited footballer. This is down to a lack of quality players Mcleish has inherited. Warnock would not get into another prem team. Clarke is trying to find his feet. Petrov although has had a good season is not a 90mins player. Ireland is only just starting to play along with Heskey who a championship level player at most. Ye Mcleish could of put Nzogbia on after half time but we then had our best period of the game and did not want to stop the momentum ......

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this.  Virtually every player in that team was a full international (of the 12 that played today only albrighton isn't capped at full international level).

I agree there are some of them who aren't great footballers but they've clearly done enough in their careers to date to have earned the right to play at this level.

Compare that to Swansea who have about 5 players in their squad who have earned international recognition.

There is no way we should be completely outplayed by a newly promoted side with championship level players and a handful of new signings.

He hasn't had a massive amount of time but we should've started to see some effect of what is being done on the training ground.  At times we've played reasonably well (nothing amazing but at least playing to the strengths of the squad) but this has been all too infrequent.

I think it's fairly clear that the squad has completely lost confidence now but I haven't seen any sign of him doing anything to address that either.

Finally with the money he has been allowed to spend so far he bought nzogbia (I actually think this purchase was more that people from the club saw fans all over the internet lauding him up as an adequate replacement for ash and suggested it might get the fans onside) who he has completely failed to integrate into the side and Hutton who is no better than Herd or Lichaj who were already here and on a fraction of the wages.  I'm just not sure I'd trust him to improve the quality in the squad if Randy handed him a blank cheque.

So how many international have Arsenal got ??  "There is no way we should be completely outplayed by a newly promoted side with championship level players and a handful of new signings." Does this apply to Arsenal as well ? Sometimes it easy to see only what you want to see and ignore the big picture .........

[Chris Smith]

Note the difference between Moyes and McLeish, one starts with two players who've just joined the club, AM has someone for 6 weeks costing £500K plus insurance and brings him on for the last 10minutes, typical low risk management style which is going to get us relegated.

Sunday Express reckons McLeish has asked Liverpool about a swap Carroll for Bent but been turned down. Anyone understand the logic for this, as no money was mentioned?

It's clearly bullshit, I can't believe anyone could think otherwise.

[tarzansbrother]

Note the difference between Moyes and McLeish, one starts with two players who've just joined the club, AM has someone for 6 weeks costing £500K plus insurance and brings him on for the last 10minutes, typical low risk management style which is going to get us relegated.

Sunday Express reckons McLeish has asked Liverpool about a swap Carroll for Bent but been turned down. Anyone understand the logic for this, as no money was mentioned?

It's clearly bullshit, I can't believe anyone could think otherwise.

Why, Villa have been on a road to destruction for 2 seasons now. Mcliesh as our manager was clearly bullshit, but the bullshit was in our current chairmans eyes when he appointed him. Nothing surprises at Villa anymore.

[paul_e]

I can honestly say this is not the managers fault. Except for signing Hutton who is a very limited footballer. This is down to a lack of quality players Mcleish has inherited. Warnock would not get into another prem team. Clarke is trying to find his feet. Petrov although has had a good season is not a 90mins player. Ireland is only just starting to play along with Heskey who a championship level player at most. Ye Mcleish could of put Nzogbia on after half time but we then had our best period of the game and did not want to stop the momentum ......

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this.  Virtually every player in that team was a full international (of the 12 that played today only albrighton isn't capped at full international level).

I agree there are some of them who aren't great footballers but they've clearly done enough in their careers to date to have earned the right to play at this level.

Compare that to Swansea who have about 5 players in their squad who have earned international recognition.

There is no way we should be completely outplayed by a newly promoted side with championship level players and a handful of new signings.

He hasn't had a massive amount of time but we should've started to see some effect of what is being done on the training ground.  At times we've played reasonably well (nothing amazing but at least playing to the strengths of the squad) but this has been all too infrequent.

I think it's fairly clear that the squad has completely lost confidence now but I haven't seen any sign of him doing anything to address that either.

Finally with the money he has been allowed to spend so far he bought nzogbia (I actually think this purchase was more that people from the club saw fans all over the internet lauding him up as an adequate replacement for ash and suggested it might get the fans onside) who he has completely failed to integrate into the side and Hutton who is no better than Herd or Lichaj who were already here and on a fraction of the wages.  I'm just not sure I'd trust him to improve the quality in the squad if Randy handed him a blank cheque.

So how many international have Arsenal got ??  "There is no way we should be completely outplayed by a newly promoted side with championship level players and a handful of new signings." Does this apply to Arsenal as well ? Sometimes it easy to see only what you want to see and ignore the big picture .........

DId they pass round Arsenal and make them look like a bunch of pub players like they did to us?

Or maybe did they keep their shape, let arsenal pass it around ineffectually (as we did for most of the game) and then score on the break when the chances came to them?

I haven't seen the game at all but my point was we were totally out classed by swansea, if Arsenal were as well then fair play to Swansea best of luck to them.  I used swansea as an example, I could've picked others.  Your determination to hold on to that as the basis of the argument that we're not as bad as people make out is a bit weak.

The point I was making is that for all the 'blame the players, McLeish hasn't got a chance with this squad' that is coming out the reality is there's enough talent there for us to to at least make an effort against Tottenham and Liverpool rather than just rolling over and asking them to be kind to our goal difference.I guess the thing is I don't understand how anyone can see enough positives from the last 6 months to justify letting him have next season as well.

For me there's no point sacking a manager mid season unless you're already down so I'd keep him until a day or 2 after the final whistle on the last day, then get a replacement in place within a fortnight so they're ready before the euro's to get scouting and start building a squad.

[mozza]

12000 empty seats would indicate that stay away fans don't like 'watching paint dry'

Can think of better things to do on Villa match days - its only meeting up with mates that keeps me going
but if this is the 'dynamic' style the manager wants his team to play there will be another empty seat next season-     

[Concrete John]

A lot of negative comments on the game, but if I'm honest I think we weren't that bad.

First half was a non event, by both sides, and then we picked up in the 2nd half and deservedly took the lead.  Their goal was against the run of play and seemed to knock the stuffing out of us and we coudln't really get going again after that.  In truth, had we won I think it'd be lrgely viewed as "Not bad and something to build on", but with us AGAIN failing to keep a clean sheet the negatives, which were there in all honesty, come to the for.

In terms of negativity by our manager, I would point out that at 1-1 he took of a defender to put an extra striker upfront, so a substitution that said he wanted to go for it, IMO.

I think Warnock needs taking out now, probably with Clark taking his place.  In fact, against Wolves I'd go back to basics and play a back 4 of Cuellar, Dunne, Collins & Clark, with Petrov infront of them, and tighten up as much as possible.   

[Hookeysmith]

Why is everyone blaming Warnock for the goal, It was Albrighton fault for not tracking back or giving up trying to con the linesman he was offside.

I blame Hutton for the goal. He was way out of position when the break started

100% correct sir