How safe are we?

[Chris Smith]

We've been poor against the good sides but held our iwn with everyone else. We were a team in transition last time we had this debate and we still are. As such we're going to get good, bad and indifferent performances.

In transition to what state is the question? It's OK to be in transition if you get the feeling the club is moving in the right direction. My feeling is that the club is not heading in the right direction so I don't regard it as transition, more decline.

That's the worry. The transfer window will tell us a lot. I know many argue that McLeish shouldn't be trusted with the money but if they don't allow him to sign players it suggests that he's just the fall guy, brought in to keep the flak away from the board.

With every other manager it's been accepted that he can only truly be judged when he can pick a side of players he wants rather than this he was left with.

[CJ]

I don't think he understands the English mentality with regards to football and the passion shown for our club by the fans.

Agree Leeg but from what we hear he has similar problems with the Browns and their fans so it seems more than just a 'soccer' thing

[pav]

It all seemed so perfect when Doug sold up to

[themossman]

We've been poor against the good sides but held our iwn with everyone else. We were a team in transition last time we had this debate and we still are. As such we're going to get good, bad and indifferent performances.

In transition to what state is the question? It's OK to be in transition if you get the feeling the club is moving in the right direction. My feeling is that the club is not heading in the right direction so I don't regard it as transition, more decline.

That's the worry. The transfer window will tell us a lot. I know many argue that McLeish shouldn't be trusted with the money but if they don't allow him to sign players it suggests that he's just the fall guy, brought in to keep the flak away from the board.

With every other manager it's been accepted that he can only truly be judged when he can pick a side of players he wants rather than this he was left with.

Agree with that. His record so far in the market (purely at Villa) hasn't suggested he's going to waste money any more than MON. I have doubts about his management like most but he inherited a limited squad that had been recently robbed of its best players, with known trouble makers and shite morale. He needs funds to stop the rot in the way he sees fit, and I'm still up for giving him a go. Question is will Randy put up the funds.

[jonc73]

With every other manager it's been accepted that he can only truly be judged when he can pick a side of players he wants rather than this he was left with.

I was hoping McLeish would be more the type who could galvanize the existing set of players. Given the current situation at Villa Park then he was never going to be able to go wild in the transfer market.The reason I'm concerned about relegation is the current team don't give the impression they are behind the manager.AM also hasn't used the tools his has in the most effective way either e.g. Bent.I hope he can turn it around, but it's got to be quickly.I can more likely see someone giving Villa a real thrashing and the pressure building so much he leaves.If the manager stays then he needs backing in the transfer market.

[old man villa fan]

As many have said, there will be 3 teams worse than us at the end of the season.  We are, however, in rapid decline.  I believe the decline started when we lost to Man Utd in the cup final.  O'Neill lost his bottle and stopped believing in his ability to build a football team, only buy one.

Houllier came in late and started with an injury crisis, the likes of which we hadn't seen for many a season.  He upset a number of players, the exact reasons I am not exactly sure of but some of those players are not exactly pulling up trees at this point in time.  My belief is that he saw lack of commitment and that is coming to the fore again this season.  We had to endure some terrible games/results last season but he saw that we had to change our style of play to move on.  We could not afford to keep on generally buying expensive players to stand still.  I thought that he did start getting it right and a method of play where we could bring young players in and they actually develop into better players.

Bringing in a new manager based on what he has achieved elsewhere without understanding the differences of the teams he has managed before and the team he is brought in to manage is a major risk.  This has been Lerner's major downfall.  He did not understand the type of manager he required to reinvigorate the club and use the resources he already had and the limited finances that he had available.

McLeish, in my opinion, was never this man.  He will never be as good as O'Neill but tried the same footballing strategy but with lesser players.  He does not have a clue how to integrate young inexperienced players into the team.  Many supporters are saying that our young players are not as good as we thought they were.  I do not believe this but if you bring them into a team that does not try and play football and has no confidence you will destroy them.

McLeish's interview after the game yesterday, summed it up for me, he does not know how to get the players to respond and how to get the team to play effective football.

We will survive this season but we are going backwards fast.  Another season and everything Lerner achieved in his first 3 to 4 years will be destroyed to the point that we will be back to the final year of DOL and Doug, a team in terminal decline.

[Chris Smith]

Omvf, you've made the same mistake as a lot of others in failing to recognise the difference in performances against top 6 sides and those against the rest. We have played effective football in those other games, not always pretty but enough to get something out all of them but the one where Dowd fucked up. I'm starting to sound like a broken record but you cannot escape the reality of it.

As for the comment about the youngsters, what about Chris Herd? He's given others the opportunity but they haven't really taken them - you can lead a horse to water...

Now, McLeish might turn out to be the wrong man but it's too early to know and at the moment the arguments are about exaggerating the negatives and ignoring anything that doesn't suit the position people have decided to take.

[Legion]

OMVF makes a number of valid points.

[Fin Feds Dad]

Opta stats as at 14 December 2011

Team              Goals      Shots                 On Target                Shot Accuracy                Succ Passes   
Arsenal               31        190                       94                              49%                               6955 
Aston Villa           18        124                     45                              36%                               3492   [/b]
Blackburn Rovers 22       128                      59                              46%                               3474   
Bolton Wanderers 20      128                      73                               57%                               4151   
Chelsea                 33      205                      96                               47%                               6669   
Everton                  15      143                     59                               41%                               4176   
Fulham                   16      159                     80                               50%                               5213   
Liverpool                18      203                      81                               40%                               5685   
Manchester City     49      217                     104                              48%                               6960   
Manchester United 35      179                      96                               54%                               6066   
Newcastle United    21     138                      63                               46%                               4061   
Norwich City            24     150                      67                               45%                               3931   
Q P  R                      15     150                      52                               35%                               4110   
Stoke City                16    118                      44                               37%                                2918   
Sunderland              18     162                     68                               42%                                 4444   
Swansea City          16     136                     54                               40%                                  6917
Spurs                       30     198                    105                              53%                                 5608   
Baggies                    14     141                     61                              43%                                  4576   
Wigan Athletic        14     150                    60                               40%                                  4854   
Wolves                    16     162                    73                               45%                                  4687

[old man villa fan]

Omvf, you've made the same mistake as a lot of others in failing to recognise the difference in performances against top 6 sides and those against the rest. We have played effective football in those other games, not always pretty but enough to get something out all of them but the one where Dowd fucked up. I'm starting to sound like a broken record but you cannot escape the reality of it.

As for the comment about the youngsters, what about Chris Herd? He's given others the opportunity but they haven't really taken them - you can lead a horse to water...

Now, McLeish might turn out to be the wrong man but it's too early to know and at the moment the arguments are about exaggerating the negatives and ignoring anything that doesn't suit the position people have decided to take.

Yes, Chris, you are starting to sound like a broken record.  If you cannot see the obvious, well.

We have two of the top forwards in the division, we should be winning games.  If you do not have the ability to use them, they get injured or they get suspended, then what?

I am fed up with average sides out playing us for large periods of games and us having to rely on the natural ability of Gabby and Bent to get us out of the mire.  We are a better club than this.

You carry on wearing your claret tinted spectacles.

By the way, I admire your loyalty.

[hawkeye]

 What if Newcastle table 20 mil for Gabby in January? take him out the team and we will be in real trouble

[Chris Smith]

It's not loyalty, omvf, it's sticking to the facts and applying common sense rather than emotion.

We defend well for there games but as soon as we let in a couple of soft goals the whole defence is always shit according to this site. We get a point at Swansea, a team with one of the best home records in the league, but it's considered a failure. We see players discover some form at Bolton but it's all forgotten when we lose to Liverpool.

If you get rid of three quarters of the midfield from any side and try to fill the gaps with inexperienced kids you're going to have problems. Any manager would have found it difficult under those circumstances. We're a mid table club with a side delivering mid table results.

[Clampy]

We defend well for there games but as soon as we let in a couple of soft goals the whole defence is always shit according to this site. We get a point at Swansea, a team with one of the best home records in the league, but it's considered a failure.

It's not just the defence though is it? I think people would be a bit happier if we tested the opposition keepers a bit more. Since we beat Norwich, we've only scored two goals and that was against Bolton. That's where the real probelm lies.

[pauliewalnuts]

Omvf, you've made the same mistake as a lot of others in failing to recognise the difference in performances against top 6 sides and those against the rest. We have played effective football in those other games, not always pretty but enough to get something out all of them but the one where Dowd fucked up. I'm starting to sound like a broken record but you cannot escape the reality of it.

As for the comment about the youngsters, what about Chris Herd? He's given others the opportunity but they haven't really taken them - you can lead a horse to water...

Now, McLeish might turn out to be the wrong man but it's too early to know and at the moment the arguments are about exaggerating the negatives and ignoring anything that doesn't suit the position people have decided to take.

Chris, what did you think of the performances against QPR (a), Swansea (a), Albion (h), Bolton in the LC, or Wolves?

Those teams aren't anywhere near the top six, and they were distinctly unimpressive.

It's also a bit off to refer to people sticking to the positions they've decided to take - do you mean all of them? Or just some of them?

There was a similar situation with Houllier last season, but I don't remember there being anything like the degree of agreement over him that we have over McLeish.

This isn't meant as a personal dig, but seen that way, it looks more like you're the one who is sticking to a position he has decided to take.

[pauliewalnuts]

We defend well for there games but as soon as we let in a couple of soft goals the whole defence is always shit according to this site. We get a point at Swansea, a team with one of the best home records in the league, but it's considered a failure.

It's not just the defence though is it? I think people would be a bit happier if we tested the opposition keepers a bit more. Since we beat Norwich, we've only scored two goals and that was against Bolton. That's where the real probelm lies.

We are either at, or very near, the bottom of the tables for completed passes, shots on goal, shots on target and actual goals.

We've also got an £18m England international striker who, on average, touches the ball fewer times per match than any other player in the PL. Not just any other striker, any other player.

it is not in any way just about defending. The rest is absolute garbage as well.