Can we have our club back please

[bertlambshank]

Bandwagon jumpers very good Mr Smith what next Happy clappers?

[Chris Smith]

I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.

I think it's clear that under Lerner from now on, the downs are going to outnumber the ups by some considerable margin.  Fans can see this, which is why they're staying away in droves.

Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.

To say from " now on" is showing powers of prediction that most humans don't possess. For now, is certainly true but the message from his interviews last week is that he's still committed to trying to grow the club.

[pauliewalnuts]

Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.

Except that isn't true.

Average crowds for the last 15 years:

37.194
38.573
39.812
40.029
36.214
34.112
37.354
36.622
33.923
35.012
31.597
31.697
36.935
36.136
36.027

average over that period = 36,082.

The entire country is feeling the effects of the recession, not just the midlands, and everywhere crowds are suffering a little, but nowhere have they suffered as much as ours have.

It's fair enough for us to argue about why the crowds are down, but to pretend they've done nothing other than sink to a "natural" level strikes me as ignoring statistical fact.

[ROBBO]

I think the posters on this site are pretty good at spotting lemons but always willing to back the managers judgement til proven right. I site Harewood and Heskey as prime examples, the disbelief when MON signed those two, we knew they were crap players but still gave them time to prove us wrong, unfortunately our judgement proved correct. Heskey tries hard i'll give him that but what good is he? and the latest purchase Hutton he will be one of the undropables because AM will have to prove he was right.

[Risso]

I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.

I think it's clear that under Lerner from now on, the downs are going to outnumber the ups by some considerable margin.  Fans can see this, which is why they're staying away in droves.

Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.

To say from " now on" is showing powers of prediction that most humans don't possess. For now, is certainly true but the message from his interviews last week is that he's still committed to trying to grow the club.

Wrong Chris, when was the last time our average crowd has been as low as it is now, bearing in mind we've had two local derbies as well?  Enough people have said that they're not going any more because of the perceived lack of direction from the club.  The economic downturn will have had some effect, but not as much as Lerner clearly having had enough.

Lerner is just an appalling businessman.  He lost total control over finances, makes poor appointments, and under him now we're in a worse financial position than we were under Ellis.  All he's done is let O'Neill take a scatter gun approach to transfers, less than half of which actually improved the club. 

Take it from me, we haven't see the worst of the austerity measures under Lerner yet.

[Chris Smith]

Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.

Except that isn't true.

Average crowds for the last 15 years:

37.194
38.573
39.812
40.029
36.214
34.112
37.354
36.622
33.923
35.012
31.597
31.697
36.935
36.136
36.027

average over that period = 36,082.

The entire country is feeling the effects of the recession, not just the midlands, and everywhere crowds are suffering a little, but nowhere have they suffered as much as ours have.

It's fair enough for us to argue about why the crowds are down, but to pretend they've done nothing other than sink to a "natural" level strikes me as ignoring statistical fact.

Now take out the spike I mentioned and what is the figure? Our three highest averages were all under in the last 5 years.

It's clear that the current level of support is not unprecedented.

[stuart r]

Since General Krulak stopped posting can I ask if H&V has any direct contact with the club anymore? Is there any way that supporter's collective concerns expressed on threads like this can be passed on to the club? Perhaps a letter (not a publicity seeking open letter) sent to the club from H&V that summarises the worries that people here have may be of value. Written in the right spirit I think a letter from H&V Towers to the club might be worthwhile... and personally I would like to see the campaigning/lobbying aspect of fanzines return.... This might already be happening so I go back to my initial question, Does H&V have any contact with the club management at the mo?

[Risso]

Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.

Except that isn't true.

Average crowds for the last 15 years:

37.194
38.573
39.812
40.029
36.214
34.112
37.354
36.622
33.923
35.012
31.597
31.697
36.935
36.136
36.027

average over that period = 36,082.

The entire country is feeling the effects of the recession, not just the midlands, and everywhere crowds are suffering a little, but nowhere have they suffered as much as ours have.

It's fair enough for us to argue about why the crowds are down, but to pretend they've done nothing other than sink to a "natural" level strikes me as ignoring statistical fact.

Now take out the spike I mentioned and what is the figure? Our three highest averages were all under in the last 5 years.

It's clear that the current level of support is not unprecedented.

Our current average is 32,922, lower than any attendance in the last 10 years, AND we've played two local derbies at home.  Our ten year average is 36,800, so we're currently well down.  It's clear that our average attendance should be somewhere up around the 37K mark, and it goes up a thousand or so when we do well, and drops a thousand when we do less well.  These crowds are dire.

[Chris Smith]

The average of the ten years pre Lerner was 34.9k. My guess is that is around where we'll be by the end of the season. We've played none of the top clubs at home and our crowds are generally higher after Christmas.

They are clearly down but comparing them to the unusually high averages of the past few years distorts the picture.

[Risso]

I think it's clear that when there's a bit of hope around, crowds go up, when there isn't, they go down.  I dread to think what they'd be in the Championship.

[brontebilly]

Seriously lads we havent a hope under McLeish or without someone running the club who actually has a clue what he is doing. If it came down to a choice of McLeish walking or a Dein or Levy type figure being appointed as CE, Id plump for a proper CE.

The club is sleepwalking into oblivion. I wouldnt mind but I think we actually have a decent enough squad at the moment. With lots of young players on the verge of the first team and a mix of Given, Dunne, Bent, Gabby, Nzogbia who are as good in their positions as most players in the league. But without leadership in the board room and on the sideline, these players wont thrive and will just continue to leave.

[Hookeysmith]

I dont want to get distracted by crowd volumes as this was not the point of the thread - this was a thread about how we have morphed into the dog shit and the common denominator is clearly the managers mentality in relation to senior players and tactics.

Any how another factor regarding the crowds at VP - Norwich have been the only club that actually took up their full allocation considering we have had 2 local derbies neither of the away supporters filled their allocation and considering other include Blackburn (750) and Wigan (450) that certainly does not help the overall total headcount

Even the barcodes brought 1000 less than they usually do and they are the bestest greatest fans in the world

[ktvillan]

McLeish is the managerial equivalent of Harewood.  When we signed him I despaired, said I'd give him a chance, but all along I knew he was shite.  And despite the odd hint at quality,  so it proved. 

As for the neutral view, in the mailbox on football 365, there are a couple of non-villa fans commenting on the game with Spurs, and marvelling at how bad we were, and at the complete absurdity and ineptitude of McLeish's selection, formation and, er, "tactics".  One asked if we are that bad every week, another was gobsmacked at Mcleish urging the players to keep it up at the 86 minute mark - the "it" in question presumably being defending the 2-0 defeat.  Another thanked Villa for providing Harry with the completely stress-free return he needed.

True there has been the odd glimpse of attempts to play decent football, but against opposition rated between mediocre and appalling.  Only three of whom we've beaten, and then only just.  In two games against the better teams we have simply bent over and splayed our arse cheeks.  That is the most damning element of McLeish's reign. 

He's supposed to be utilising the academy talent - Okay he's used Herd, Bannan and to a lesser extent Baker, but Clarke,  Delfounso and Albrighton have barely had a sniff.  Would they have been any worse than Collins, Heskey and Hutton on Wednesday? I can't imagine how.

Ultimately I ask myself could I see any of the top flight clubs of similar size or potential to us (say Everton, Spurs, Newcastle, even Sunderland) accepting that  kind of mediocrity, gutlessness, lack of belief and piss poor technique.  Would any of them consider appointing a manager with McLeish's track record in the PL?  I really can't see it.

Unfortunately for us, relegation might be the only way to get shot of him.

[pauliewalnuts]

The average of the ten years pre Lerner was 34.9k. My guess is that is around where we'll be by the end of the season. We've played none of the top clubs at home and our crowds are generally higher after Christmas.

They are clearly down but comparing them to the unusually high averages of the past few years distorts the picture.

No, it doesnt, though.

In fact, it is more relevant to look at it against recent averages as it shows the way things have swung.

[Hookeysmith]

I think relegation would not get rid of him - he then would be promoted as being the manager who has won promotion from the championship

We need him to have the balls to realise this job, as well rewarded as it is , is beyond him and to walk away

I also have spokent oa  few clients of ours who are ST holders at Spurs and they have always said that one of the many games they look forward to in recent times as been us at their place. The reasoning has been that both teams were attack minded and it was alway a decent / open game. They always knew they had been in a game even if they had won.

They could not believe the team selection or the way we played either and said it was the worst performance they had seen at WHL by any team for many years - without being too condescending they actually said that they felt for us