Safe Standing Petition.

[Ad@m]

I've read what you've written and it still makes no more sense.

There are many reasons why more women and children attend games now and not one single one of them would have to stand up if they didn't want to, so why a few people standing at the other side of the ground would prevent them from attending is beyond me. Why do you think less of football's traditional working-class support attend, or are they unimportant?

Then you bring Hillsborough into the argument and when that one's rubbished you say the truth is irrelevant because the public apparently think differently. I'll have to try that one some time - never mind what's right, if I think it isn't it's wrong.     

It's interesting how a fanzine editor claims to not understand the power of public perception.  Whatever the actual reason for the Hillsborough disaster (if indeed there is just one) the Taylor report's two major recommendations was the removal of fences and the introduction of all-seater stadia.  As a result, the public perceive those to be the two things which will prevent another Hillsborough.  Bringing in standing areas reverses that move and would be perceived to be less safe.  True or not.

And as for the traditional working class support, I don't think they're unimportant (and I don't think I said or even suggested that), far from it.  But it is the ridiculous level of inflation in football prices that has affected them, not the introduction of all-seater stadia.  I have never come across anyone who has refused to go to a football match because they would be provided with a seat!

[Can Gana Be Bettered!?!?]

It doesn't matter how large or small a terracing area, for many reasons it's never coming back.

There's only one reason it wont come back............the apathy of people who are willing to put up with the bullsh*t fed to them by the governing bodies. And who seem to enjoy the lack of atmosphere at our major football grounds.

What was the reason all seater stadiums were introduced

The failure of the police.

[Rico]

I would love standing to come back. Just my personal opinion, that's all.

[dave.woodhall]

I've read what you've written and it still makes no more sense.

There are many reasons why more women and children attend games now and not one single one of them would have to stand up if they didn't want to, so why a few people standing at the other side of the ground would prevent them from attending is beyond me. Why do you think less of football's traditional working-class support attend, or are they unimportant?

Then you bring Hillsborough into the argument and when that one's rubbished you say the truth is irrelevant because the public apparently think differently. I'll have to try that one some time - never mind what's right, if I think it isn't it's wrong.     

It's interesting how a fanzine editor claims to not understand the power of public perception.  Whatever the actual reason for the Hillsborough disaster (if indeed there is just one) the Taylor report's two major recommendations was the removal of fences and the introduction of all-seater stadia.  As a result, the public perceive those to be the two things which will prevent another Hillsborough.  Bringing in standing areas reverses that move and would be perceived to be less safe.  True or not.

And as for the traditional working class support, I don't think they're unimportant (and I don't think I said or even suggested that), far from it.  But it is the ridiculous level of inflation in football prices that has affected them, not the introduction of all-seater stadia.  I have never come across anyone who has refused to go to a football match because they would be provided with a seat!

Why should I be any more or less aware of public perception? For that matter, why would such perception, if it exists, prevent anyone from attending a match?

I know a few people who gave up watching because they'd have to sit  but I don't know of anyone who might  not go to a football match because someone else - not them, but someone else, in another part of the ground - is standing up.

[amfy]

  I have never come across anyone who has refused to go to a football match because they would be provided with a seat!

Have you come across people who don't go because there's no atmosphere anymore, or because it's too expensive?....or even because they can't see because people keep standing up in front of them - because standing areas actually address this issue as well by taking the standers from in front of you and giving them a space where they can stand till their hearts content.

Public perception can be changed. The truth coming out about Hillsborough could be one of the things to move it along. You are correct in saying that it is a major obstacle to the debate, but even The Kop stand for the majority of the game, and so do Liverpool's away fans. How deep is that objection if you actually open it up and take a better look at it?

Many people's objection to standing seems to be purely "It's not going to happen". If people want it to happen, that's what they should say so. Then they can look at whether the barriers to it are insurmountable. When you look into it properly, they are not. To simply say "it's not going to happen" isn't an argument.

In Germany more injures have been attributed to past standing in seated areas (including the perfectly acceptable "moments of high drama"), than placing people in areas which are designed for standing. Seated areas tend to be steeper causing more of a domino effect if one person falls. The seat in front provides a trip wire for people leaping up as a goal is scored, or for any incident or piece of action. Modern safe standing areas still provide people with their own space, but a barrier at a height that prevents "tumbling". It has also been shown that where standing areas exist, people don't stand in seated areas, so it helps those who want to sit (all those women and children!) Someone said "we need something more scientific than "It works in Germany so it'll work here", and I am stumped as to where we find this science. In Germany you can drink for the whole game as you watch the match, yet still people aren't getting hurt or causing more trouble, but crowds are up and atmospheres are better. It isn't science, but what else is there?

Crowds are down everywhere. Most of the clubs money may come from Sky these days but how long will they remain interested in a game played out to increasingly quiet and empty stadiums. Even Man United aren't selling out every week anymore. It is in clubs interests to look into this. No-one is going to force a club to provide a safe standing area, but it's something that any club re-developing a stand right now could have in mind, and build something suitable for conversion, because I think  the debate is going to happen, and it is going to be taken increasingly seriously.

[Rico]

Even if a limited amount of standing was allowed, thẹ clubs that have recently developed their stadia would most likely not be able to afford the cost of changing the layout of the terracing.
Villa Park on the other hand has the North Stand still awaiting redevelopment. I know the plans seem to have been shelved, but perhaps if the law on standing is changed the new North Stand could be a new Holte End, which would not only be excellent, but would give us a massive capacity, and hopefully cheaper access to the ground.

[Archbishop Herbert Cockthrottle]

Even if a limited amount of standing was allowed, thẹ clubs that have recently developed their stadia would most likely not be able to afford the cost of changing the layout of the terracing.
Villa Park on the other hand has the North Stand still awaiting redevelopment. I know the plans seem to have been shelved, but perhaps if the law on standing is changed the new North Stand could be a new Holte End, which would not only be excellent, but would give us a massive capacity, and hopefully cheaper access to the ground.

Why is there this absurd notion that if safe standing is implemented then tickets will be cheaper? To change existing seating to standing areas will cost a lot of money. To redevelop an area like the North Stand it will cost a lot of money whether there are seats there or safe standing areas introduced.
From what I gather safe standing areas will have to have increased numbers of stewards. Safety checks on standing barriers, if we go the way of the German model, will be constant.  It all costs money.
If there is one accident caused by a safe standing area, all of them will be closed. Do you think any club in its right mind would take that risk?
The sooner people realise that it is not just a case of taking some seats out, the better.
If you think you'll get cheaper tickets because you are standing, you probably think that the fall of Gadaffi will bring down petrol prices at the pumps. Think again.

[itbrvilla]

Am I right in thinking that it is not against the law to stand in seated areas at a football match?

I'm sure its upto the club and local authorities.

[itbrvilla]

Even if a limited amount of standing was allowed, thẹ clubs that have recently developed their stadia would most likely not be able to afford the cost of changing the layout of the terracing.
Villa Park on the other hand has the North Stand still awaiting redevelopment. I know the plans seem to have been shelved, but perhaps if the law on standing is changed the new North Stand could be a new Holte End, which would not only be excellent, but would give us a massive capacity, and hopefully cheaper access to the ground.

Why is there this absurd notion that if safe standing is implemented then tickets will be cheaper? To change existing seating to standing areas will cost a lot of money. To redevelop an area like the North Stand it will cost a lot of money whether there are seats there or safe standing areas introduced.
From what I gather safe standing areas will have to have increased numbers of stewards. Safety checks on standing barriers, if we go the way of the German model, will be constant.  It all costs money.
If there is one accident caused by a safe standing area, all of them will be closed. Do you think any club in its right mind would take that risk?
The sooner people realise that it is not just a case of taking some seats out, the better.
If you think you'll get cheaper tickets because you are standing, you probably think that the fall of Gadaffi will bring down petrol prices at the pumps. Think again.

Wolves have already backed it.  I'm sure most clubs appart from the biggest will also like to introduce this.

[john e]

There's thousands of supporters who stand on terraces every week in Britain to watch football, just not in the premier league

[itbrvilla]

There's thousands of supporters who stand on terraces every week in Britain to watch football, just not in the premier league

And at the egg chasing.

[Marlon From Bearwood]

There's thousands of supporters who stand on terraces every week in Britain to watch football, just not in the premier league

And at the egg chasing.

Plus the hundreds of thousands of music fans who stand at festivals and outdoor gigs each summer.

[Archbishop Herbert Cockthrottle]

Even if a limited amount of standing was allowed, thẹ clubs that have recently developed their stadia would most likely not be able to afford the cost of changing the layout of the terracing.
Villa Park on the other hand has the North Stand still awaiting redevelopment. I know the plans seem to have been shelved, but perhaps if the law on standing is changed the new North Stand could be a new Holte End, which would not only be excellent, but would give us a massive capacity, and hopefully cheaper access to the ground.

Why is there this absurd notion that if safe standing is implemented then tickets will be cheaper? To change existing seating to standing areas will cost a lot of money. To redevelop an area like the North Stand it will cost a lot of money whether there are seats there or safe standing areas introduced.
From what I gather safe standing areas will have to have increased numbers of stewards. Safety checks on standing barriers, if we go the way of the German model, will be constant.  It all costs money.
If there is one accident caused by a safe standing area, all of them will be closed. Do you think any club in its right mind would take that risk?
The sooner people realise that it is not just a case of taking some seats out, the better.
If you think you'll get cheaper tickets because you are standing, you probably think that the fall of Gadaffi will bring down petrol prices at the pumps. Think again.

Wolves have already backed it.  I'm sure most clubs appart from the biggest will also like to introduce this.

Why? Whats in it for them?

[Archbishop Herbert Cockthrottle]

There's thousands of supporters who stand on terraces every week in Britain to watch football, just not in the premier league

And at the egg chasing.

Plus the hundreds of thousands of music fans who stand at festivals and outdoor gigs each summer.

You can have a pint whilst standing watching rugby.
You can smoke whilst standing at music festivals.
All urinals are now standing only.

[itbrvilla]

Even if a limited amount of standing was allowed, thẹ clubs that have recently developed their stadia would most likely not be able to afford the cost of changing the layout of the terracing.
Villa Park on the other hand has the North Stand still awaiting redevelopment. I know the plans seem to have been shelved, but perhaps if the law on standing is changed the new North Stand could be a new Holte End, which would not only be excellent, but would give us a massive capacity, and hopefully cheaper access to the ground.

Why is there this absurd notion that if safe standing is implemented then tickets will be cheaper? To change existing seating to standing areas will cost a lot of money. To redevelop an area like the North Stand it will cost a lot of money whether there are seats there or safe standing areas introduced.
From what I gather safe standing areas will have to have increased numbers of stewards. Safety checks on standing barriers, if we go the way of the German model, will be constant.  It all costs money.
If there is one accident caused by a safe standing area, all of them will be closed. Do you think any club in its right mind would take that risk?
The sooner people realise that it is not just a case of taking some seats out, the better.
If you think you'll get cheaper tickets because you are standing, you probably think that the fall of Gadaffi will bring down petrol prices at the pumps. Think again.

Wolves have already backed it.  I'm sure most clubs appart from the biggest will also like to introduce this.

Why? Whats in it for them?

For a start it will inject a bit of buzz into the matchday maybe making more people inclined to go.  More fans can fit into the same space = more sales of over priced matchday crap = more revenue.  The bigger clubs are only really interested in business and corporate and having noisy terraces will spoil the sterile theatre experience.