?% Villa. Martinez, MON and the pie eaters

[Rudy Can't Fail]

All you have to do to get me to agree with you is explain to me how we could have done it with less money and without further investment. You won't find any of the clubs that are now vying for top four with a more frugally assembled squad or significantly lower wages than we had. We were and are massively below average in terms of transfer spend and wages for the top six.

We need to stop thinking about the money as Lerner's money and realise that we are talking about the club's revenue and investment.

Let's save time and start with the last bit first, stop thinking of it as Lerner's money. Okay, we're £36m in debt, the year before I think it was £44m. Our revenue is way below any of the top six, our wage bill accounts for 88% of our turnover, so we can't compete unless we have fresh investment but I can't see too many banks willing to lend us the money, certainly not when we owe so much. The obvious plan would be to reduce the debt and start again when we're more financially attractive to the lenders.

It's pointless arguing how it could have been done, as for every "don't buy Knight, Harewood, Heskey, Beye, NRC, Dunne" etc there's a "who should we have bought, which is as the locals say here, 'discussing the sex of the angels', which isn't half as much fun as it sounds. What we and hopefully the board should be looking at is learning from their mistakes and deciding exactly what is necessary to do in future.

We've invested a lot of money over the past 5 years, a lot of it wasted. Whilst I'm not a big fan of DoFs, it's obvious the board needed one. Aston Villa is not a play thing but it was treated as such by MON and judging by our situation today, demonstrated by the complete lack of financial professionalism, also by Randy Lerner. I can only hope Randy has the determination and vision to learn from his mistakes, as Aston Villa is becoming a very expensive project and in fairness, he deserves better.

It was a massive gamble, especially when he didn't know all the rules of the game. I guess like others he got took in by MON but he should have known better, so he only has himself to blame.

[dave.woodhall]

All you have to do to get me to agree with you is explain to me how we could have done it with less money and without further investment. You won't find any of the clubs that are now vying for top four with a more frugally assembled squad or significantly lower wages than we had. We were and are massively below average in terms of transfer spend and wages for the top six.

We need to stop thinking about the money as Lerner's money and realise that we are talking about the club's revenue and investment.

We were also massively below average in terms of points and league place in the top six. The credibility of your statistics, even dubious ones, would improve immeasurably if you didn't discard ones that don't fit into your argument.

[QBVILLA]

Whilst it appears not to be a popular opinion on here i'm still firmly a fan of what MoN did for our club.sure he made his mistakes, but for me he did more good things than bad.What Camara thinks of him is neither here nor there,he was hardly reknowned for his unwavering commitment.Twelve months ago if we'd have been offered Houllier or McLeish in place of MoN I wonder how many would've taken that offer without dismissing it with utter derision? Likewise how many really rate N'Zogbia above Downing and Young?
Fact is it's now history and MoN actually gave us a side who actually got us believing we might actually do something, after years of just trundling along. I think his tenure at Villa Park should be treated with a little more respect.

[Brazilian Villain]

Whilst it appears not to be a popular opinion on here i'm still firmly a fan of what MoN did for our club.sure he made his mistakes, but for me he did more good things than bad.What Camara thinks of him is neither here nor there,he was hardly reknowned for his unwavering commitment.Twelve months ago if we'd have been offered Houllier or McLeish in place of MoN I wonder how many would've taken that offer without dismissing it with utter derision? Likewise how many really rate N'Zogbia above Downing and Young?
Fact is it's now history and MoN actually gave us a side who actually got us believing we might actually do something, after years of just trundling along. I think his tenure at Villa Park should be treated with a little more respect.

Well said.

[Lucky Eddie]

Whilst it appears not to be a popular opinion on here i'm still firmly a fan of what MoN did for our club.sure he made his mistakes, but for me he did more good things than bad.What Camara thinks of him is neither here nor there,he was hardly reknowned for his unwavering commitment.Twelve months ago if we'd have been offered Houllier or McLeish in place of MoN I wonder how many would've taken that offer without dismissing it with utter derision? Likewise how many really rate N'Zogbia above Downing and Young?
Fact is it's now history and MoN actually gave us a side who actually got us believing we might actually do something, after years of just trundling along. I think his tenure at Villa Park should be treated with a little more respect.

If it were you money, would you have given him even another ten quid to spend? I know I wouldn't.

[Brend'Watkins]

Whilst it appears not to be a popular opinion on here i'm still firmly a fan of what MoN did for our club.sure he made his mistakes, but for me he did more good things than bad.What Camara thinks of him is neither here nor there,he was hardly reknowned for his unwavering commitment.Twelve months ago if we'd have been offered Houllier or McLeish in place of MoN I wonder how many would've taken that offer without dismissing it with utter derision? Likewise how many really rate N'Zogbia above Downing and Young?
Fact is it's now history and MoN actually gave us a side who actually got us believing we might actually do something, after years of just trundling along. I think his tenure at Villa Park should be treated with a little more respect.

Some very valid points.  However, it's the manner and timing of his departure that sticks in the craw, for me it's where much of the respect he gained goes out the window. 

[QBVILLA]

Whilst it appears not to be a popular opinion on here i'm still firmly a fan of what MoN did for our club.sure he made his mistakes, but for me he did more good things than bad.What Camara thinks of him is neither here nor there,he was hardly reknowned for his unwavering commitment.Twelve months ago if we'd have been offered Houllier or McLeish in place of MoN I wonder how many would've taken that offer without dismissing it with utter derision? Likewise how many really rate N'Zogbia above Downing and Young?
Fact is it's now history and MoN actually gave us a side who actually got us believing we might actually do something, after years of just trundling along. I think his tenure at Villa Park should be treated with a little more respect.

If it were you money, would you have given him even another ten quid to spend? I know I wouldn't.

It wasn't my money, and i'll never have the opportunity to deal with that level of finance so i don't know.Sure the manager has to take his fair amount of blame when transfers don't work out but i'd have thought that he wasn't the one signing the cheques.We chased the dream of CL football starting with a  squad which was basically relegation fodder so it was always going to take a big investment.With the established sky4 then the emergence of Spurs and the outlandish finances at Man City we ultimately fell short at the end.However, two Wembley trips and three successive 6 place finishes is success for us when considering our competitors.

Bren 'D, fair comment regarding the timing of his departure, though we've never actually been given the full reason why he quit.Like many I assume it was to do with lack of funds, but like I said i'm only assuming that was the case.

[Olneythelonely]

Who do you prefer Villa'Zawg, Martin O'Neill or Aston Villa?

I was banned the last time I gave you a straight answer to this type of question, so I'll let you make your own mind up this time.

Really? That seems a bit harsh. I mean, a straight answer was exactly what I wanted.

[cdward]

MON and Randy coming in gave us belief, real belief built on tangible steady progress, improved points year on year, improved goals for and against. The strongest squad ever seen at VP, european football, cup runs, great signings, local bragging rights, historical victories.  They gave us consistency, and a platform to climb to the next level. MON was working to the brief and vision as laid out by the chairman and board.
OK it wasn't all perfect but, the combination of Randy and MON was the best we have had in the last 30 years, it was the belief that we could really go and challenge.
That dream is over, and MON and Randy both played a part in the end game, so to single out the negatives and blame MON is very short sighted indeed.
I am grateful for that time MON was here, and i will always give him the respect he deserves, he turned us into a proper team capable of challenging, i only hope it happens again soon.

[QBVILLA]

MON and Randy coming in gave us belief, real belief built on tangible steady progress, improved points year on year, improved goals for and against. The strongest squad ever seen at VP, european football, cup runs, great signings, local bragging rights, historical victories.  They gave us consistency, and a platform to climb to the next level. MON was working to the brief and vision as laid out by the chairman and board.
OK it wasn't all perfect but, the combination of Randy and MON was the best we have had in the last 30 years, it was the belief that we could really go and challenge.
That dream is over, and MON and Randy both played a part in the end game, so to single out the negatives and blame MON is very short sighted indeed.
I am grateful for that time MON was here, and i will always give him the respect he deserves, he turned us into a proper team capable of challenging, i only hope it happens again soon.

seconded

[Villa'Zawg]

All you have to do to get me to agree with you is explain to me how we could have done it with less money and without further investment. You won't find any of the clubs that are now vying for top four with a more frugally assembled squad or significantly lower wages than we had. We were and are massively below average in terms of transfer spend and wages for the top six.

We need to stop thinking about the money as Lerner's money and realise that we are talking about the club's revenue and investment.

We were also massively below average in terms of points and league place in the top six. The credibility of your statistics, even dubious ones, would improve immeasurably if you didn't discard ones that don't fit into your argument.

I also didn’t mention the price of fish. That isn’t because I chose to disregard it on the basis that it didn’t fit my argument, I chose to disregard it because it was irrelevant to the point I was responding to.

If people want to argue that we spent too much on transfer fees or we paid too much in wages compared to what we achieved, then it makes sense to compare our spending  to the other clubs we were trying to compete with.

You have raised a different question about the other side of the equation i.e. our points total compared to the average top six. It’s a fair question.

In 07/08 we were 16 points below the average for the top six and 16 points behind the fourth placed team.
In 08/09 we were 14 points below average and 10 points from fourth place.
In 09/10 we were 10.5 points below average and 6 points from fourth place, with the added benefit of a decent showing in the domestic cups.

I’d be interested to hear how those statistics fit with your argument? 

[dave.woodhall]

All you have to do to get me to agree with you is explain to me how we could have done it with less money and without further investment. You won't find any of the clubs that are now vying for top four with a more frugally assembled squad or significantly lower wages than we had. We were and are massively below average in terms of transfer spend and wages for the top six.

We need to stop thinking about the money as Lerner's money and realise that we are talking about the club's revenue and investment.

We were also massively below average in terms of points and league place in the top six. The credibility of your statistics, even dubious ones, would improve immeasurably if you didn't discard ones that don't fit into your argument.

I also didn’t mention the price of fish. That isn’t because I chose to disregard it on the basis that it didn’t fit my argument, I chose to disregard it because it was irrelevant to the point I was responding to.

If people want to argue that we spent too much on transfer fees or we paid too much in wages compared to what we achieved, then it makes sense to compare our spending  to the other clubs we were trying to compete with.

You have raised a different question about the other side of the equation i.e. our points total compared to the average top six. It’s a fair question.

In 07/08 we were 16 points below the average for the top six and 16 points behind the fourth placed team.
In 08/09 we were 14 points below average and 10 points from fourth place.
In 09/10 we were 10.5 points below average and 6 points from fourth place, with the added benefit of a decent showing in the domestic cups.

I’d be interested to hear how those statistics fit with your argument? 

They show that we finished sixth. Are you ever going to include more than six clubs in your rather tired argument?

[not3bad]

"Absence makes the Mart Grow Stronger":

http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/fanseyeview/archive/2011/08/01/absence-makes-the-mart-grow-stronger.aspx

Ultimately what I find most annoying about the article is that on the one hand the writer calls Villa "a sleeping giant", but on the other hand he says Villa's decline without MON is inevitable, no more to "unxepectedly reach the top 6".

[Villa'Zawg]

Who do you prefer Villa'Zawg, Martin O'Neill or Aston Villa?

I was banned the last time I gave you a straight answer to this type of question, so I'll let you make your own mind up this time.

Really? That seems a bit harsh. I mean, a straight answer was exactly what I wanted.

Yes, really.

There is nothing I have ever written on here that justifies you asking me if I would like the club to be relegated or if I prefer an ex-manager to Aston Villa or indeed to question my support of the club in any other way.

So I'm afraid I can't answer your question because the only straight answer your question deserves would result in a ban. You can always refer to my reply the last time you asked this type of question if that helps.

[cdward]

 

All you have to do to get me to agree with you is explain to me how we could have done it with less money and without further investment. You won't find any of the clubs that are now vying for top four with a more frugally assembled squad or significantly lower wages than we had. We were and are massively below average in terms of transfer spend and wages for the top six.

We need to stop thinking about the money as Lerner's money and realise that we are talking about the club's revenue and investment.

We were also massively below average in terms of points and league place in the top six. The credibility of your statistics, even dubious ones, would improve immeasurably if you didn't discard ones that don't fit into your argument.

I also didn’t mention the price of fish. That isn’t because I chose to disregard it on the basis that it didn’t fit my argument, I chose to disregard it because it was irrelevant to the point I was responding to.

If people want to argue that we spent too much on transfer fees or we paid too much in wages compared to what we achieved, then it makes sense to compare our spending  to the other clubs we were trying to compete with.

You have raised a different question about the other side of the equation i.e. our points total compared to the average top six. It’s a fair question.

In 07/08 we were 16 points below the average for the top six and 16 points behind the fourth placed team.
In 08/09 we were 14 points below average and 10 points from fourth place.
In 09/10 we were 10.5 points below average and 6 points from fourth place, with the added benefit of a decent showing in the domestic cups.

I’d be interested to hear how those statistics fit with your argument? 

They show that we finished sixth. Are you ever going to include more than six clubs in your rather tired argument?

So, we finished with the lowest points total out of the top 6, and on average with less points than the team that finished fourth, amazing revelations!