SSN: "Downing won't commit to Villa"

[RespectVilla]

"Historically, we are to Liverpool (or any other plastic media club) what they are to Chelsea."

I'm a Liverpool fan, been following since Redman posted.

We're all biased and proud of our club, etc. I'm not surprised the media comments on Liverpool, "Legendary Kop", etc make you sick, the "night in Istanbul" comment was funny.

But our history, the club and team Shankly built, and Paisley continued, is based on his philosophy. Shankly was a Socialist, our fans believed in the man, the club, and had faith in the teams he built. You might think that faith was misplaced but its not a history based on financial clout, or even trophies won. Surely you can see it can't be equated to what Abramovich is doing at Chelsea?

I'm too young to remember Shanks, but I remember the great teams of the 80's, and they were a force to be idolised. What the older fans around me could call a continuation of the Liverpool way. Something we could all believe in.

The greater history of AVFC, as far as I can make out on here, is based on the fact you were formed 20 years before us and on trophies won, that even our Grandfathers can't remember. Basically, stuff you read about in a Rothamans annual.

History isn't about trophies accumulated, but equally its not about year formed in, or number of trophies won before WW1. To us its about what the club means to its fans, and has meant through time. Our history is the club Shankly built for the people of Liverpool to be proud of.

[TheSandman]

We did establish the whole football league thing.

[Louzie0]

Welcome liverpool fans.  Lovely that you're here. Er, just one thing.  This is a Villa site. So, anything less than, you are the greatest club ever just doesn't quite cut it.  But with that understanding absolutely understood - carry on sharing.

[Billy Walker]

"Historically, we are to Liverpool (or any other plastic media club) what they are to Chelsea."

I'm a Liverpool fan, been following since Redman posted.

We're all biased and proud of our club, etc. I'm not surprised the media comments on Liverpool, "Legendary Kop", etc make you sick, the "night in Istanbul" comment was funny.

But our history, the club and team Shankly built, and Paisley continued, is based on his philosophy. Shankly was a Socialist, our fans believed in the man, the club, and had faith in the teams he built. You might think that faith was misplaced but its not a history based on financial clout, or even trophies won. Surely you can see it can't be equated to what Abramovich is doing at Chelsea?

I'm too young to remember Shanks, but I remember the great teams of the 80's, and they were a force to be idolised. What the older fans around me could call a continuation of the Liverpool way. Something we could all believe in.

The greater history of AVFC, as far as I can make out on here, is based on the fact you were formed 20 years before us and on trophies won, that even our Grandfathers can't remember. Basically, stuff you read about in a Rothamans annual.

History isn't about trophies accumulated, but equally its not about year formed in, or number of trophies won before WW1. To us its about what the club means to its fans, and has meant through time. Our history is the club Shankly built for the people of Liverpool to be proud of.

Nope.  Our greater history is based on the fact we created the league. The world's first league.  On top of that we had football's first true dynasty and visionaries behind us. 

Allow me to quote you here:

"The greater history of AVFC, as far as I can make out on here, is based on the fact you were formed 20 years before us and on trophies won, that even our Grandfathers can't remember. Basically, stuff you read about in a Rothamans annual."

Allow me to re-write it as Chelsea fan talking about Liverpool:

"The greater history of LFC, as far as I can make out on here, is based on the fact you struck it rich thirty years before us and on trophies won, that only our dad's remember. Basically, stuff you watched on Saint and Greavsie."

[VillaZogmariner]

You're only as good as your last game.

How did that go again?

[eastie]

Come now Billy we must not live 100 years in the past ,we need to move on and win things in the here and now.

[Billy Walker]

Not a history based on financial clout?!

Liverpool have been amongst the biggest wage payers from the sixties onwards.  Shankly's first act as Liverpool manager? He doubled the, then, Liverpool transfer record and signed Ian St. John.  It was a huge signing for a second tier football club. 

[Rigadon]

"Historically, we are to Liverpool (or any other plastic media club) what they are to Chelsea."

I'm a Liverpool fan, been following since Redman posted.

We're all biased and proud of our club, etc. I'm not surprised the media comments on Liverpool, "Legendary Kop", etc make you sick, the "night in Istanbul" comment was funny.

But our history, the club and team Shankly built, and Paisley continued, is based on his philosophy. Shankly was a Socialist, our fans believed in the man, the club, and had faith in the teams he built. You might think that faith was misplaced but its not a history based on financial clout, or even trophies won. Surely you can see it can't be equated to what Abramovich is doing at Chelsea?

I'm too young to remember Shanks, but I remember the great teams of the 80's, and they were a force to be idolised. What the older fans around me could call a continuation of the Liverpool way. Something we could all believe in.

The greater history of AVFC, as far as I can make out on here, is based on the fact you were formed 20 years before us and on trophies won, that even our Grandfathers can't remember. Basically, stuff you read about in a Rothamans annual.

History isn't about trophies accumulated, but equally its not about year formed in, or number of trophies won before WW1. To us its about what the club means to its fans, and has meant through time. Our history is the club Shankly built for the people of Liverpool to be proud of.

Nope.  Our greater history is based on the fact we created the league. The world's first league.  On top of that we had football's first true dynasty and visionaries behind us. 

Allow me to quote you here:

"The greater history of AVFC, as far as I can make out on here, is based on the fact you were formed 20 years before us and on trophies won, that even our Grandfathers can't remember. Basically, stuff you read about in a Rothamans annual."

Allow me to re-write it as Chelsea fan talking about Liverpool:

"The greater history of LFC, as far as I can make out on here, is based on the fact you struck it rich thirty years before us and on trophies won, that only our dad's remember. Basically, stuff you watched on Saint and Greavsie."

Respect Villa's post was well written but this "club for the people thing", that's how all fans feel isn't it?  I mean, do you really think that Liverpool belongs to it's fans anymore than Chelsea, or Sunderland, or Villa, or Everton, or Manchester United.  The only reason fans of clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd feel like they have to push this working class for the people thing is to counteract the fact that most of it's support has never actually been to Liverpool or Manchester.  Not casting any aspersions on the poster BTW, I'm sure he's from Toxteth or Bootle or somewhere. 

As for the big club argument, it's ALL about timing and perception and increasingly money.

[Chris Smith]

RespectVilla, good post but I think that the club that Shankley built is just a distant memory these days both in terms of success on the pitch and your standing off it. There's little doubt that he and those that followed achieved great things but you're now on your second set of Yank billionaires and your fan base is distinctly cosmopolitan rather than just the 'people of Liverpool'. A long way from his socialist vision.

[Billy Walker]

Come now Billy we must not live 100 years in the past ,we need to move on and win things in the here and now.

You're only as good as your last game.

How did that go again?

No, no!  At Liverpool you are only as good as your last pass.  (I think that's what Hansen told the masses back in the nineties.)  I make that a scuffed Kuyt shinner that went out at the Witton Lane.

[eastie]

Agree in part rigatoni but it's not all about money- partly maybe but I certainly wouldn't say Chelsea are a bigger club than villa- richer and more successful at the moment yes but bigger no!

On that note I will bid you all goodnight , back to work at 5 am so I'm off to sleep.

[KevinGage]

Liverpool are  a big club, whichever way you want to cut it. By whatever definition you want to use. But then so are we.

Bigger/ biggest - that's always going to be down to individual interpretation, with lashings of bias thrown in for good measure.

I think most neutrals -and a fair few Villa fans would say they are, at this stage. I don't think many Redscouse fans would reciprocate. They've had the guts of 40 years now being in and around the top echelons of the league -and don't tend to have the same dry spells we do between trophies won.

If McGregor was instrumental in setting up the league (and he was) McKenna at Liverpool played a big role in the formative years of the comp too, as vice president and then president. So they have been big players near enough since the get go. They do have pedigree. A quick scan of their honours says they won their first league title in 1901 and had five on the board soon after WWII (compared to our six at that stage).  Which surprised me TBH.

Was McGregor's genius in forming the league and seeing the possibilities, or merely getting their first?  After all, there were clubs formed before us (and soon after us). Could it be argued that a domestic league would have inevitably happened anyway?  I'll leave that to people who know a bit more about the subject.

[PaulMcGrathsNo5Shirt]

I don't give a shit about the 'Liverpool-bigger-than-Villa thing, what pisses me off is the fact that he (Downing) arrived on one leg, took 6 months money out of the club as we showed faith in him, he was average at best for the rest of the season. One decent season and he fucks off at the first opportunity after completely changes his mind.
No doubt the gutless, spineless piece of shit will be injured on his return to Villa Park. If he shirks a tackle, he'll certainly shirk faces the Villa fans at Villa Park. Tosser

[Billy Walker]

Come now Billy we must not live 100 years in the past ,we need to move on and win things in the here and now.

I agree, Eastie, every club wants to win in the here and now.  We desperately need to add a few trophies to our cabinet.  Having said that, there is no harm at all in looking at history and putting it into context.  When certain football clubs get such a free, positive press and other clubs don't (despite being far more influential) you have to start making a noise about it.  This idea that Liverpool supporters have about their club, this notion that their history is greater than Villa's is, to put it politely, ridiculous.

Lets compare Shankly's record with our own Geogre Ramsay:

George Ramsay: League Championships: 6
                           FA Cups 6
(League and Cup Double 1)

Bill Shankly: League Champs 3
                    FA Cup 2
                    UEFA Cup 1

Which one of the two have you read about in the newspapers, heard mentioned on TV etc.?  I couldn't care less about where, when, how or why the honours were won...the press seem to have moulded the history of football into a certain way.  We have every right to challenge it. 

Because Ramsay's success finished forty years before Shankly's started is no excuse to not remember or celebrate it.   If that was the case we may as well forget about Shankly now and start worshiping at the altar of Jose M.
                   

[RespectVilla]

With due respect, I can't take your arguments seriously if you insist that your club was solely responsible for forming the league. Has it not occurred to you that you needed other teams to play against?

If it was your guy who first said, "hey, lets have a league with points and stuff", is that what you're most proud of? I'll stick with Shankly's vision "My idea is to build a  bastion of invincability... so they have to send a team from Mars to beat us" and all that.