0% Villa: Lennon attacked during Hearts match

[selly park trinity]

Why should waving British flags at a football match in Britain be condemed? There's a difference between celebrating Britishness and being anti-Catholic.

Totally agree there is.

But in the context of Rangers handing out 40,000 flags to their supporters before a game with Celtic, what do you honestly think the intent was?  Having a 'Britain Day' or trying to wind up the Celtic fans?

Well, whether they were trying to wind Celtic fans up or not, can Celtic fans really complain about a team waving the flag of the country that both clubs play in? I understand their complaints when Rangers fans start singing songs about William of Orange and the like, but I don't think there's anything wrong with displaying the Union flag.

I suppose it's as others have said, there's a reason they only do it against Celtic.

Anyway, my point was that actions like this should be carefully considered.  For instance, there's nothing wrong with Catholic Arthur Boruc blessing himself before a game.  But when he does it only infront on the Rangers fans, it's obviously more of a wind up than a celebration of his faith.

Spot on.  It does make me wonder that if they did join the prem whether they would have time for this kind of thing and solely concentrate on their teams as they would be in a more competitive league where they wouldn't get an easy ride most weeks and would be more worried about relegation or euro spots.  Wishful thinking probably but worth considering.

[DB]

Why should waving British flags at a football match in Britain be condemed? There's a difference between celebrating Britishness and being anti-Catholic.

Totally agree there is.

But in the context of Rangers handing out 40,000 flags to their supporters before a game with Celtic, what do you honestly think the intent was?  Having a 'Britain Day' or trying to wind up the Celtic fans?

Well, whether they were trying to wind Celtic fans up or not, can Celtic fans really complain about a team waving the flag of the country that both clubs play in? I understand their complaints when Rangers fans start singing songs about William of Orange and the like, but I don't think there's anything wrong with displaying the Union flag.

I suppose it's as others have said, there's a reason they only do it against Celtic.

Anyway, my point was that actions like this should be carefully considered.  For instance, there's nothing wrong with Catholic Arthur Boruc blessing himself before a game.  But when he does it only infront on the Rangers fans, it's obviously more of a wind up than a celebration of his faith.

Spot on.  It does make me wonder that if they did join the prem whether they would have time for this kind of thing and solely concentrate on their teams as they would be in a more competitive league where they wouldn't get an easy ride most weeks and would be more worried about relegation or euro spots.  Wishful thinking probably but worth considering.

They are 2 big fish in a small pond up there with no-one else really to compete with, down here they would have more teams to test themselves and as you say may deter them, but when they play each other, it would be the same bollox. I can also see for the first few seasons being trouble against some English clubs, but it will level out - a bit like when SHA first came up, the first matches were horrible, now it's bad but not as bad, if you get my drift. That said, they can stay up there.

[selly park trinity]

Agreed.  I think eventually they will consume themselves but I dread to think what it will take to make that happen.....or they start smoking weed before the games.  Legalise it Salmond! 

[TaxDodger]

To be fair, Rangers don't suddenly become pro-British when they play Celtic. They do constantly fly a Union flag at Ibrox. I know they handed out Union flags to fans in that game against Celtic, which you could argue was partly to annoy the away fans, but it's not like they don't celebrate Britishness at other points.

[Villa'Zawg]

As the writer of that Spectator article observed;

"Often confusingly labelled "sectarianism", ethno-religious prejudice, particularly of the anti-Catholic variety, is still alive and (literally) kicking in 2011."
...
In addition to a politician and a QC - albeit both with Celtic FC connections - receiving letter bombs, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, Scotland's most senior Roman Catholic clergyman and an Irish cultural-political organisation have also received bullets and a letter bomb in the post.

This is, of course, in addition to Celtic players Niall McGinn and Paddy McCourt - both Northern Irish Catholics - receiving bullets in the post. The choice of targets here is revealing and tells us a lot about the essence of ethno-religious prejudice in Scotland.

A cursory analysis of the targets reveals the common denominators to be one or some of the following combination; high profile Roman Catholic in Scotland, Celtic FC connection, Irish.

[Damo70]

Lennon had loads of grief as a player too, from both a club and country perspective. I also believe MON had problems when he was made Northern Ireland captain, but i didn't hear of him having any problems whilst Celtic boss.

[Villa'Zawg]

Lennon had loads of grief as a player too, from both a club and country perspective. I also believe MON had problems when he was made Northern Ireland captain, but i didn't hear of him having any problems whilst Celtic boss.

He and his family had received numerous death threats after he started playing for Celtic but chose to ignore them. NI were due to play Cyprus and a few hours before the game the BBC received a coded death threat from one of the Loyalist paramilitary organisations (LVF?) warning that he shouldn't play or would be killed. It wasn't a vague phone call or hate filled letter. He was advised to withdraw from the squad by the police.

[Irish villain]

It's quite possible to be a nationalist without supporting the IRA you know. Some remarkable double standards being shown here.

Ger, you grew up in the south too right? In 25 years I've only been to the North twice. I don't think Celtic supporters who wave the tricolour realsie how apathetic most people in the Republic are about Northern Ireland or Irish unity. Does it annoy you to hear both sets of supporters drag up the past in song? I have no interest in the Celtic/Rangers divide even though a lot of Irish people identify with Celtic (obviously).

As for the upsurge in anti-Celtic/Catholic/Irish attacks in Scotland, I'd imagine it has a lot to do with a 'siege mentality'. The Union is coming under attack (devolution, SNP success, power sharing in Northern Ireland) so there's bound to be a sense of 'what we have we hold' on the part of Loyalists. For them, Celtic/Catholics/the Irish represent the enemy I guess and as has been pointed out in various contributions on this thread Lennon ticks a lot of those boxes!

I still think he doesn't deserve it and that its little to do with his character and everything to do with his ethnicity.

[DB]

It's quite possible to be a nationalist without supporting the IRA you know. Some remarkable double standards being shown here.

Ger, you grew up in the south too right? In 25 years I've only been to the North twice. I don't think Celtic supporters who wave the tricolour realsie how apathetic most people in the Republic are about Northern Ireland or Irish unity. Does it annoy you to hear both sets of supporters drag up the past in song? I have no interest in the Celtic/Rangers divide even though a lot of Irish people identify with Celtic (obviously).

As for the upsurge in anti-Celtic/Catholic/Irish attacks in Scotland, I'd imagine it has a lot to do with a 'siege mentality'. The Union is coming under attack (devolution, SNP success, power sharing in Northern Ireland) so there's bound to be a sense of 'what we have we hold' on the part of Loyalists. For them, Celtic/Catholics/the Irish represent the enemy I guess and as has been pointed out in various contributions on this thread Lennon ticks a lot of those boxes!

I still think he doesn't deserve it and that its little to do with his character and everything to do with his ethnicity.

Well said. I think most people in the rest of the UK are bothered either (as you say apathetic), it just in the areas where they live side by side. Having spent a lot of time in Glasgow, it shocked me how bad it is, it's like going back 300 hundred years.

[Irish villain]

Well said. I think most people in the rest of the UK are bothered either (as you say apathetic), it just in the areas where they live side by side. Having spent a lot of time in Glasgow, it shocked me how bad it is, it's like going back 300 hundred years.

I live like 80 miles from the border and I've only ever been there twice! My first trip to Belfast was November 2010! Most people in the south think the North's a mess and steer clear. It's sad to think parts of Glawsgow are also a mess because of a conflict  that has nothing to do with them!

[Olneythelonely]

Well said. I think most people in the rest of the UK are bothered either (as you say apathetic), it just in the areas where they live side by side. Having spent a lot of time in Glasgow, it shocked me how bad it is, it's like going back 300 hundred years.

I live like 80 miles from the border and I've only ever been there twice! My first trip to Belfast was November 2010! Most people in the south think the North's a mess and steer clear. It's sad to think parts of Glawsgow are also a mess because of a conflict  that has nothing to do with them!

I love Belfast, cracking city.

Going to the extreme areas, from both sides of the devide, was mental.

[hawkeye]

If you live in Glasgow what else have you got to live for except predjudice.Miserable lives in a wet cold city spiced up by hatred, they cant let it go so they play out a 2 team competition every year and think its important.
Let them get on with it. If Lennon has got any sense he will walk away and find a better life for him and his family.

[brontebilly]

Neil Lennon ought to ask himself why it is that Celtic have had more successful managers, more 'Celtic-minded' managers, managers at greater times of strife in Northern Ireland and Gordon Strachan, yet none of them have attracted such a constant reaction as him.

A roundabout way of saying Lennon had the 'reaction' coming to him.

Reaction - death threats, bullets in the post, attacks on pitch, being kicked unconscious on street, having his car driven into.

He has had a decent first season too, their points tally has improved from Mowbray's farcical regime.

Lennon might be a bit of an idiot but a bit of perspective wouldnt go astray.

[Ger Regan]

And to take that standpoint you have to ignore everyone else related to Celtic that have recently been subjected to similar intimidation and attempted murders.

I still find it amazing that something written on a piece of paper (no matter how objectionable) has generated a stronger reaction in some than the attempted murder of a football manager.

[dave.woodhall]

Neil Lennon ought to ask himself why it is that Celtic have had more successful managers, more 'Celtic-minded' managers, managers at greater times of strife in Northern Ireland and Gordon Strachan, yet none of them have attracted such a constant reaction as him.

A roundabout way of saying Lennon had the 'reaction' coming to him.

I didn't say that at all, but you carry on thinking it if you want.