The future of Houllier and McAllister?

[Somniloquism]

I have just about had enough of this crazy notion that Houllier is responsible for our current position.  We have a squad of highly paid proffesional footballers.    We can play good attactive football under Houllier, better than the dross MON coached.
How many tackes has Houllier missed ?   How many 10 - 15 yard passes has he crashed into the opposition?   How many corners has he belted into the front defender or lobbed over the back of the 18 yard box.?  How may free kicks has he smashed into row F?

Non ladies.    and you can bet your bottom dollar they arnt coached to do any of this, yet we see it every week.

Blame the players, not the coaching staff.  The sooner they are put on incentive payment/wages the better.

On another brief note, is it me, or can Petrov not kick a ball properly.  He always seems to flick it from under his body with the side of his foot?

So why does he persist in letting the player who does this take them instead of saying, "You are not doing what I have coached on the pitch so someone else can have a try instead." A Manager needs to make the difficult decisions for the good of the team whether that is too piss off a player who is holding the club to ransom or to say sorry to another player to get them playing again. It is a tight call and why most managers cannot cut it.

[VillaZogmariner]

I can see what you are saying Risso, and I agree that with 2 games to go there should be no mathematical chance that we could go down. But look at the bigger picture for a second - our form between the signing of Bent and Houllier being rushed into hospital was the 7th best in the league. Throw in with that the freak of a match that was Bolton away too and it would've been even better. Houllier has made mistakes this season, there is no getting away from that fact. However he has also done some good things too and the team was starting to show a bit of promise.

You know what they say, there's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Bent made his debut against Man City and including that one we had 11 league games before Houllier went in to hospital.  In that period we played Wigan, Fulham, Blackpool, Blackburn, Bolton, Wolves, Newcastle and West Ham.  In any of the last three seasons I would've expected us to win almost all of those but this season we won just 4.

To say we had the 7th best form over that period is completely misrepresentative when during that period we didn't have to play Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or Spurs.

That is true, we had a fairly decent run of games "on paper" in that run - on the other foot we had a shit run of matches between Houllier taking over and us signing Bent (2 matches v Man Utd, Chelsea & Spurs etc), and the only true and fair "form" guide will be revealed at around 6pm next Sunday.

[Greg N'Ash]

I'd save you're breath Villasubmariner. Its too complicated for them to consider variables  like injuries, other clubs improving, players getting old etc.. into the equation. no doubt in 1981 when we finished 10 places down on the preceeding season they were all saying "but its the same side that won the league"

[VillaZogmariner]

Off the top of my head, the figures for our squads wages were 85% of turnover last season - had Randy just decided "fuck it" and agreed to the signing of McGeady and Keane or whoever it was that MoN wanted we'd be looking at a figure of probably around 100% of turnover. You really cannot run a business (and that is essentially what a football club is) like that. Eventually we'd be going the same route as Portsmouth and Leeds.

But we managed to sell players in January so it would only have been at that level for a few months, I'm arguing that a bit of flexibility in the summer might have given us a better season.

Out of the 6 players MoN was believed to have been told to get rid of we sold 1 in January (Davies), with Shorey leaving back in the Summer. Do you believe, had MoN still been here, that Ireland and Carew would've left in January too?

EDIT - forgot about Sidwell, not that that is surprising!

[Legion]

That would have been 1982.

[Somniloquism]

I'd save you're breath Villasubmariner. Its too complicated for them to consider variables  like injuries, other clubs improving, players getting old etc.. into the equation. no doubt in 1981 when we finished 10 places down on the preceeding season they were all saying "but its the same side that won the league"

I doubt we were saying that in 1981. 82 maybe but then they won the Euro Cup so the extra matches  in that plus the turmoil of a change in manager could have been an excuse.

[Greg N'Ash]

aye. point stands though.

[Chris Smith]

Know way off knowing, VS.

If they had the time over and knowing how it turned out do you think the board would be so inflexible again?

[Greg N'Ash]

I'd save you're breath Villasubmariner. Its too complicated for them to consider variables  like injuries, other clubs improving, players getting old etc.. into the equation. no doubt in 1981 when we finished 10 places down on the preceeding season they were all saying "but its the same side that won the league"

I doubt we were saying that in 1981. 82 maybe but then they won the Euro Cup so the extra matches  in that plus the turmoil of a change in manager could have been an excuse.

aye, the turmoil of a change in manager as compared to 3 this season.

[Chris Smith]

aye. point stands though.

Are you trying  to suggest that  Houllier has done the best that he possibly could? That none of this pig's ear of a season is down to him?

It's a distraction and not helpful for you to keep bringing MON into it. Houllier should be judged on his own performance and we have a right to expect better.

[Risso]

O'Neill leaving didn't help matters, but Houllier has made enough absolute howlers himself to make me think that even if he gets another two years, he'll be just as useless.  Dropping Cuellar after a great performance, for the abject Dunne, persisting with Young as a forward, playing Gabby out wide, chucking in the towel at Man City - the hallmarks of a manager way, way past his best, which is what I thought he was when he arrived.

[VillaZogmariner]

Know way off knowing, VS.

If they had the time over and knowing how it turned out do you think the board would be so inflexible again?

Towards MoN? Then yes I do think they'd have stood their ground. And it's something they should've done. How weak would Randy have looked if he was bullied into spending the money by MoN?

[holtepaul]

I'd save you're breath Villasubmariner. Its too complicated for them to consider variables  like injuries, other clubs improving, players getting old etc.. into the equation. no doubt in 1981 when we finished 10 places down on the preceeding season they were all saying "but its the same side that won the league"

Maybe not then , but 3 yrs later once our midfield had been disassembled and replaced with "kids that are our future" (I wonder where I have heard that one before) I bet they were (in fact I was !)

1981 - midfield Cowans , Bremner , Morley , Mortmer               1986  - midfield Hodge (spit) , McMahon , and two of any number of kids

2010 - midfield Barry (gone) Milner (gone) Young (going) Petrov (going) -

1981 - no nonsense manager, done his way, or no way at att.

1986 - started with inexperienced manager totally our of his depth, then changed to a manager who clearly wanted to be at a different club to the one he was actual at.

Similarities are frightening aren't they ?

[Ad@m]

Know way off knowing, VS.

If they had the time over and knowing how it turned out do you think the board would be so inflexible again?

If they had the time over do you think they'd have employed Houllier?

[VillaZogmariner]

O'Neill leaving didn't help matters, but Houllier has made enough absolute howlers himself to make me think that even if he gets another two years, he'll be just as useless.  Dropping Cuellar after a great performance, for the abject Dunne, persisting with Young as a forward, playing Gabby out wide, chucking in the towel at Man City - the hallmarks of a manager way, way past his best, which is what I thought he was when he arrived.

I agree with every single point you've made their Risso about his mistakes. A couple of them he has since rectified though. (Putting Young back out wide and moving Gabby into the middle).

But I also think that come this Summer, with the chance to get rid of the wasters like Dunne, Warnock, Ireland and the probability that Ashley will be on his way, then he'd bring in the players that would've improved us for next season.