Which Club Had The Better Deal?

[Villa'Zawg]

Carew's goals per appearance record sits somewhere between Gray/Platt and Withe/Shaw. He must be some player if he's done that without being up for it.

Except as the facts below show, he didn't.

I used the stats in John Lerwill's list of key Villa players to compare against Carew's stats. Those stats include cup games and I'm pretty sure they are right. I took Carew's stats from Soccerbase.com.

52 goals in 133 appearances (122 under O'Neill), which is 1 goal every 2.55 (2.34 under O'Neill) games.

Either way, he is in with the gods when it comes to Villa goalscorers.


Gray, Andy     Centre-forward     141     69     2.04     1975     1979     Sco     Also a second spell 1985-87 at end of his career.
Ford, Trevor    Centre-forward    128    61    2.10    1947    1950    Wal    
Thompson, Tommy    Forward    165    76    2.17    1950    1955    Eng    
Walker, Billy    Inside-forward    531    244    2.18    1920    1933    Eng    An England captain.
Dickson, Ian    Centre-forward    83    38    2.18    1921    1923    zzz    
Stephenson, Clem    Forward    217    96    2.26    1910    1921    zzz    Brother to George. In list of 100 top-players in English league football.
Platt, David    Midfield (attacking)    155    68    2.28    1988    1991    Eng    
Houghton, Eric    Wing-forward    392    170    2.31    1927    1946    Eng    Subsequent team manager at AVFC and also a director.
Dougan, Derek    Centre-forward    60    26    2.31    1961    1963    NI    
Garratty, Billy    Forward    260    112    2.32    1897    1908    Eng    
Johnson, George    Forward    111    47    2.36    1898    1904    zzz    
Hodgetts, Denny    Forward    218    90    2.42    1886    1896    Eng    Club vice-president to death (1944).
Thomson, Bobby    Forward (and wing-half)    172    70    2.46    1959    1964    zzz    
Burrows, Harry    Wing-forward    181    73    2.48    1960    1965    zzz    
Withe, Peter    Centre-forward    233    92    2.53    1980    1985    Eng    
McInally, Alan    Centre-forward    71    28    2.54    1987    1989    zzz    
Pace, Derek    Centre-forward    107    42    2.55    1954    1957    zzz    Unlucky to be reserve for the 1957 Cup Final.
Bache, Joe    Inside-forward    474    184    2.57    1900    1915    Eng    Captain of 'renaissance' side of 1909-14.
Shaw, Gary    Striker    213    79    2.70    1979    1988    zzz    A marvellous player whose career was blighted by injury.
Leonard, Keith    Centre-forward    47    17    2.76    1972    1975    zzz    Promising career blighted by injury.
Deehan, John    Striker    139    50    2.78    1975    1979    zzz    
Cowan, John    Wing-forward    70    25    2.80    1895    1899    zzz    Brother of James.
McParland, Peter    Wing-forward    341    121    2.82    1954    1962    NI    
Walsh, Dave    Centre-forward    114    40    2.85    1951    1955    Ire    
Chester, Reg    Wing-forward    97    34    2.85    1924    1935    zzz    
Graydon, Ray    Wing-forward    232    81    2.86    1971    1977    zzz    
Rideout, Paul    Centre-forward    63    22    2.86    1983    1985    zzz    
Walters, Joey    Forward    122    42    2.90    1906    1912    zzz    
Yorke, Dwight    Centre-forward    287    98    2.93    1990    1998    Tri    
Saunders, Dean    Centre-forward    144    49    2.94    1992    1995    Wal    
Dixon, Johnny    Forward    430    144    2.99    1946    1961    zzz    Captain of 1957 Cup-winning side.

John Lerwill - Key AV Players - Clicky

[JJ-AV]

Gabby aint far from being our leading Premier League scorer.

[dave.woodhall]

Now go back and add the ones you missed out.

[cdbearsfan]

Pongo Waring 159 in 216 games... one goal per 1.35 games.
Harry Hampton 215 in 341... one per 1.59.

Both better than any in VD's list, off the top of my head.

[Villa'Zawg]

Now go back and add the ones you missed out.

I'm afraid you've lost me?

[dave.woodhall]

It's not difficult. Add the players with better goalscoring records than Carew. cd'a made a start, and there are others.   

[Clark W Griswold]

It's a bit early to start crowing, but i agree about Bent being a great signing for us. Torres may well 'step it up' somewhat though.

[Villa'Zawg]

My list was just the section of Villa goalscorers that John Carew fitted into, I wasn't trying to suggest that Andy Gray was our best striker of all time.

The ones above are;

Halse, Harold     Forward     36     28     1.29     1912     1913     zzz     
Waring, Tom 'Pongo'    Centre-forward    225    167    1.35    1928    1935    Eng    Holds record for most goals in one season (50 in 1930-31)
McLuckie, James    Centre-forward    62    46    1.35    1901    1904    zzz    
Brown, George    Centre-forward    126    89    1.42    1929    1934    Eng    
Campbell, Johnny    Centre-forward    63    42    1.50    1895    1897    Sco    
Cook, Billy    Centre-forward    61    40    1.53    1927    1929    zzz    
Hampton, Harry    Centre-forward    372    242    1.54    1904    1920    Eng    
Capewell, Len    Centre-forward    157    100    1.57    1921    1930    zzz    
Broome, Frank    Forward    151    91    1.66    1934    1946    Eng    
Hitchens, Gerry    Centre-forward    160    96    1.67    1957    1961    Eng    Left to continue his career in Italy; died in his 40s.
Devey, John    Forward    311    183    1.70    1891    1902    Eng    Captain during Golden Years; club director from 1904-1934
Hateley, Tony    Centre-forward    148    86    1.72    1963    1966    zzz    
Astley, Dai    Centre-forward    173    100    1.73    1931    1936    Wal    
Wheldon, Fred    Inside-forward    139    75    1.85    1896    1900    Eng    
Brown, Albert    Forward    114    59    1.93    1884    1894    zzz    Brother of Arthur.
Dickson, Billy    Centre-forward    64    33    1.94    1889    1892    Sco    Captain of 1892 Cup Final side.

The ones below with a better than 1 in 5 record are;

Stainrod, Simon     Forward     81     27     3.00     1985     1988     zzz     
Atkinson, Dalian    Centre-forward    114    36    3.17    1991    1995    zzz    
Dublin, Dion    Centre-forward    189    59    3.20    1998    2004    Eng    Played a number of games at cente-back
Angel, Juan Pablo    Centre-forward    205    62    3.31    2001    2007    Col    
Haycock, Freddie    Forward    110    33    3.33    1936    1946    zzz    
Beresford, Joe    Inside-forward    251    73    3.44    1927    1935    Eng    
Dix, Ronnie    Forward    104    30    3.47    1933    1937    zzz    
Lochhead, Andy    Centre-forward    154    44    3.50    1970    1973    zzz    
Hall, Albert    Wing-forward    215    61    3.52    1904    1912    Eng    
Chatt, Bob    Forward (and Utility)    95    27    3.52    1893    1898    zzz    
Milosevic, Savo    Centre-forward    117    33    3.55    1995    1998    Ser    
Athersmith, Charlie    Wing-forward    311    86    3.61    1891    1901    Eng    
Sewell, Jackie    Forward    145    40    3.63    1955    1959    zzz    
Little, Brian    Inside-forward    302    82    3.68    1972    1980    Eng    Career prematurely ended by injury. Subsequent AV team manager.
Edwards, George    Forward    152    41    3.71    1938    1951    zzz    Best part of his career in wartime football.
Joachim, Julian    Striker    172    45    3.82    1996    2001    zzz    
Goffin, Billy    Wing-forward    173    42    4.12    1945    1954    zzz    
Woosnam, Phil    Inside-forward    125    29    4.31    1962    1966    Wal    Since an important figure in soccer in the United States
Mandley, Jack    Inside-forward    112    26    4.31    1930    1934    zzz    
Stephenson, George    Forward    95    22    4.32    1919    1927    zzz    Brother to Clem
Kirton, Billy    Inside-forward    261    60    4.35    1919    1928    Eng    
Smith, Steve    Wing-forward    187    43    4.35    1893    1901    Eng    
Vassell, Darius    Striker    201    45    4.47    1998    2005    Eng    
York, Dicky    Wing-forward    390    87    4.48    1919    1930    Eng    Narrowly survived aircrash as pilot in WW1.
Vowden, Geoff    Inside-forward    115    25    4.60    1971    1974    zzz    
Walters, Mark    Wing-forward    225    48    4.69    1982    1987    zzz    
Rioch, Bruce    Midfield (attacking)    176    37    4.76    1969    1974    zzz    
McMahon, Pat    Midfield (attacking)    150    30    5.00    1969    1976    zzz

[cdbearsfan]

I must say I'd never heard of Harold Halse before. Seems strange that we decided to get rid of our top scorer after winning the cup and finishing second in the league. Perhaps we were trying to raise cash for the expansion of Villa Park to 130,000.

[dave.woodhall]

I must say I'd never heard of Harold Halse before. Seems strange that we decided to get rid of our top scorer after winning the cup and finishing second in the league. Perhaps we were trying to raise cash for the expansion of Villa Park to 130,000.

We had Harry Hampton.

[cdbearsfan]

Didn't realise he was still playing that late on. Not that it really mattered anyway due to that ostrich getting shot.

[dave.woodhall]

Didn't realise he was still playing that late on. Not that it really mattered anyway due to that ostrich getting shot.

Shouldn't have been hungry.

[Dave Cooper please]

So to make him look good you have missed out all our best strikers and he has, in fact, only a slightly better record than Simon Stainrod?

Hmm...

[Villa'Zawg]

So to make him look good you have missed out all our best strikers and he has, in fact, only a slightly better record than Simon Stainrod?

Hmm...

Hmm… indeed.

I suppose I have to accept my own responsibility for some people getting the wrong end of the stick. I didn’t miss out our best strikers to make Carew look good, he doesn’t need it with a goalscoring record like his. I just never imagined that people would take the list to be anything other than a cross-section of our top goalscorers. I thought that sourcing the information and providing a link to the data in my post for people to check would prevent any misunderstanding

So just to be clear; This is a cross-section of key Aston Villa players taken from John Lerwill’s website, listed according to average goals per game in all 1st class matches (league and cup). I’ve included John Carew’s stats taken from Soccerbase.com, in correct order. The first entry is according to his record under Martin O’Neill and the second includes the 11 games he played this season. 

Gray, Andy     Centre-forward     141     69     2.04     1975     1979     Sco     Also a second spell 1985-87 at end of his career.
Ford, Trevor    Centre-forward    128    61    2.10    1947    1950    Wal    
Thompson, Tommy    Forward    165    76    2.17    1950    1955    Eng    
Walker, Billy    Inside-forward    531    244    2.18    1920    1933    Eng    An England captain.
Dickson, Ian    Centre-forward    83    38    2.18    1921    1923    zzz    
Stephenson, Clem    Forward    217    96    2.26    1910    1921    zzz    Brother to George. In list of 100 top-players in English league football.
Platt, David    Midfield (attacking)    155    68    2.28    1988    1991    Eng    
Houghton, Eric    Wing-forward    392    170    2.31    1927    1946    Eng    Subsequent team manager at AVFC and also a director.
Dougan, Derek    Centre-forward    60    26    2.31    1961    1963    NI    
Garratty, Billy    Forward    260    112    2.32    1897    1908    Eng    
Carew, John    Forward    122    52    2.34    2007    2010    Nor    
Johnson, George    Forward    111    47    2.36    1898    1904    zzz    
Hodgetts, Denny    Forward    218    90    2.42    1886    1896    Eng    Club vice-president to death (1944).
Thomson, Bobby    Forward (and wing-half)    172    70    2.46    1959    1964    zzz    
Burrows, Harry    Wing-forward    181    73    2.48    1960    1965    zzz    
Withe, Peter    Centre-forward    233    92    2.53    1980    1985    Eng    
McInally, Alan    Centre-forward    71    28    2.54    1987    1989    zzz    
Pace, Derek    Centre-forward    107    42    2.55    1954    1957    zzz    Unlucky to be reserve for the 1957 Cup Final.
Carew, John    Forward    133    52    2.55    2007    2010    Nor    
Bache, Joe    Inside-forward    474    184    2.57    1900    1915    Eng    Captain of 'renaissance' side of 1909-14.
Shaw, Gary    Striker    213    79    2.70    1979    1988    zzz    A marvellous player whose career was blighted by injury.
Leonard, Keith    Centre-forward    47    17    2.76    1972    1975    zzz    Promising career blighted by injury.
Deehan, John    Striker    139    50    2.78    1975    1979    zzz    
Cowan, John    Wing-forward    70    25    2.80    1895    1899    zzz    Brother of James.
McParland, Peter    Wing-forward    341    121    2.82    1954    1962    NI    
Walsh, Dave    Centre-forward    114    40    2.85    1951    1955    Ire    
Chester, Reg    Wing-forward    97    34    2.85    1924    1935    zzz    
Graydon, Ray    Wing-forward    232    81    2.86    1971    1977    zzz    
Rideout, Paul    Centre-forward    63    22    2.86    1983    1985    zzz    
Walters, Joey    Forward    122    42    2.90    1906    1912    zzz    
Yorke, Dwight    Centre-forward    287    98    2.93    1990    1998    Tri    
Saunders, Dean    Centre-forward    144    49    2.94    1992    1995    Wal    
Dixon, Johnny    Forward    430    144    2.99    1946    1961    zzz    Captain of 1957 Cup-winning side.

John Lerwill - Key AV Players - Clicky

Feel free to categorise his record as “only a slightly better record than Simon Stainrod” if you like but would you would choose that particular definition for any of the other players listed below John Carew?

[cdbearsfan]

Can we just agree that Carew was an improvement on what we had (Baros) but not as good as what we have now (Bent)?

I wish Carew all the best, so long as he signs for someone other than bloody Stoke.