Villa man seen stumbling out of spanish bar prior to game.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

If we get relegated this season people may look back on the days of mid table mediocrity with great fondness. We could then rename the other 3 stands after Doug.

Sorry, I don't buy that. The big difference between now and then was that under Ellis there was no hope. We were stagnant. Even if we were to go down this season, I'd fancy us to bounce straight back up and come back stronger. Everything about the club now is right except the results, fix that and we'll be fine.

I don't agree sorry Mark.  I think relegation would cripple us personally.  I certainly wouldn't count on Lerner to pick the right manager to get us straight back up.

I know what you mean but I have more faith in Randy than you obviously do. As I've mentioned several times on here, the appointment of Houllier should have included Patrice Berges. Together they're a great double act, alone they struggle. If Houllier is to stay on next season, I pray Berges joins us. I really think we'd see a huge, positive difference.

[DB]

he has no life outside Villa Park

Remind me where this fall took place?

You miss the point, Chris. Sure he was out at his place in Palma, probably due to his wife nagging him to go out there but he was still back for the Everton game. From what I've heard from a family member, he's Johnny No Mates, apart from a bit of salmon fishing, he has no life apart from the Villa, which explains why he was so reluctant for so many years to sell up, despite the wishes of his family.

If I get to 87 I wouldn't expect many mates, more the quiet life which what it seems, he is doing - fishing, sunny hoilidays and a nice comfy seat at the Villa.

[KevinGage]

Not necessarily. You can increase your borrowings. I do struggle to recollect that Villa were on the verge of administration just before Randy took over.

Ellis did mention in the Evening Mail that the Petrov deal couldn't be completed as the club would face the prospect of going into administration. Seeing as he said money was available when MON took over, you'd have to wonder whether this was legit or just brinksmanship to get RL to cough up rather than himself.

In the end, RL did finance the deal even before the takeover was completed.

The £7(?) million that came from the sale of the Serpentine land came later into that season. As Greg and Risso have pointed out, if we were relying on that (and most likely selling Barry to Portsmouth) to fund a major rebuilding operation, we'd have faced the very real prospect of more struggle.

[pauliewalnuts]

Ellis did mention in the Evening Mail that the Petrov deal couldn't be completed as the club would face the prospect of going into administration.

Are you sure about that, Kev? The administration bit, I mean, rather than increasing our debt.

[KevinGage]

Remember it clearly. Not sure if links still exist, but it sounded pretty stark at the time.
I'll have a search.

[ktvillan]

Yet again greg disguises prejudiced opinion as fact. It's a fact that we sold a bit of land for a ridiculously large fee, the deal being announced well before anyone had even heard of Randy Lerner and while David O'Leary was still manager. It's a fact that directors have stated one of the main reasons why Randy bought us was the healthy state of the club's finances. It's my opinion that some people have an idea that our history is one of unbroken success without Doug and failure while he was in charge. Again, the facts are a bit different.

The finances may have been "healthy" in the sense that there was little or no debt, but let's not forget it came at a cost in that no debt meant under-investment, and that had led to increasing stagnation / mediocrity on the pitch.   And since we were making losses it was only a question of time before the debt mounted up.

In answer to De Kuip, I'm not sure fans necessarily expect owners to put their own money in, it's more a case of not seeing why owners should get credit for having done so when they haven't.

Good post by Steve Rose.

   

[Rudy Can't Fail]

he has no life outside Villa Park

Remind me where this fall took place?

You miss the point, Chris. Sure he was out at his place in Palma, probably due to his wife nagging him to go out there but he was still back for the Everton game. From what I've heard from a family member, he's Johnny No Mates, apart from a bit of salmon fishing, he has no life apart from the Villa, which explains why he was so reluctant for so many years to sell up, despite the wishes of his family.

If I get to 87 I wouldn't expect many mates, more the quiet life which what it seems, he is doing - fishing, sunny hoilidays and a nice comfy seat at the Villa.

It's not just now, he's been Johnny No Mates for a long time despite his claims to know and be close friends with all world leaders, football legends, showbiz stars, etc. His life has always centred around Aston Villa and a few local charities. The fishing is two weeks a year, Palma probably the same. Obviously at 87 he's doing well just to get around and I reluctantly respect him for still going to games, home and away. I could think of far better things to do than sitting in freezing cold temperatures on a Monday night in Birmingham, never mind Sunderland or Liverpool but he obviously feels very much at home and still enjoys being involved, even in a reduced capacity.

The past is the past. Good luck to him.

[Whiney MacWhineface]

Ellis did mention in the Evening Mail that the Petrov deal couldn't be completed as the club would face the prospect of going into administration. Seeing as he said money was available when MON took over, you'd have to wonder whether this was legit or just brinksmanship to get RL to cough up rather than himself.

Not true. O'Neill had just been appointed and the takeover was in progress, but not completed. As Villa didn't have the cash to pay for Petrov, Ellis had no legal basis to pay for him as he wasn't allowed to borrow money or spend what wasn't there. Therefore Lerner agreed to the purchase secured on the Serpentine cash (which, if I remember rightly was due some time in November).

We were not on the brink of administration just, as Risso says, sliding inexorably into debt. Not in any great way that a loan couldn't have dealt with, but the prospects weren't great.

[KevinGage]

Couldn't find the old Mail story but the Telegraph also covered something similar:

Lerner takes Villa upmarket
By David Bond 12:01AM BST 01 Sep 2006

Martin O'Neill's £6.5 million swoop for Stilian Petrov went ahead despite a stand-off between Doug Ellis, the former chairman, and new American owner Randy Lerner over who should provide the money for the deals.
At the start of the week, with Lerner still short of the 75 per cent of the club's shares he needs to assume legal control of the business, Ellis was insisting there was not enough cash in the bank to finance the transfers.
With City regulator, the Takeover Panel, watching developments, Ellis argued that if Villa bought the players and Lerner pulled out, the club could be insolvent. Ellis suggested Lerner should put up his own money, but that was rejected by his advisers, who said he couldn't invest until he had obtained 75 per cent of the club's shares.

[DB]

he has no life outside Villa Park

Remind me where this fall took place?

You miss the point, Chris. Sure he was out at his place in Palma, probably due to his wife nagging him to go out there but he was still back for the Everton game. From what I've heard from a family member, he's Johnny No Mates, apart from a bit of salmon fishing, he has no life apart from the Villa, which explains why he was so reluctant for so many years to sell up, despite the wishes of his family.

If I get to 87 I wouldn't expect many mates, more the quiet life which what it seems, he is doing - fishing, sunny hoilidays and a nice comfy seat at the Villa.

It's not just now, he's been Johnny No Mates for a long time despite his claims to know and be close friends with all world leaders, football legends, showbiz stars, etc. His life has always centred around Aston Villa and a few local charities. The fishing is two weeks a year, Palma probably the same. Obviously at 87 he's doing well just to get around and I reluctantly respect him for still going to games, home and away. I could think of far better things to do than sitting in freezing cold temperatures on a Monday night in Birmingham, never mind Sunderland or Liverpool but he obviously feels very much at home and still enjoys being involved, even in a reduced capacity.

The past is the past. Good luck to him.

Yep, agreed.

[Whiney MacWhineface]

Which is pretty much what I was saying. Because of the stage the takeover was in, the club (Ellis) was in no position to borrow the money to pay for Petrov. In the end Lerner did fork out the money, secured on the Serpentine sale if things went paws up with the takeover. At no point was there any question of the club going into administration.

[KevinGage]

Sorry, maybe it's my ignorance of takeover procedures and finance in general. But I'd tend to think that if Herbert had said there was  money available (as he did on MON's arrival) but then claimed a mid-range transfer fee could potentially see the club insolvent, maybe we weren't in such rude financial health afterall.

[Whiney MacWhineface]

At that point, RAL had triggered a full offer to shareholders, but the deadline for taking up that offer hadn't arrived yet, so the existing owners were still in charge. However, you are not allowed to significantly alter the financial standing of the company at that point in a takeover and as the club didn't have the money for Petrov without borrowing it (which would have done something like doubled our debt, and so would have significantly altered the finances), Ellis was quite right.

You could argue that Ellis knew the Serpentine money was coming in eventually, but under the circumstances held out to the letter of the law (the Serpentine cash would have significantly reduced our then debt).

[Chico Hamilton III]

I didn't sell my single share in Villa to Randy when I received the offer. I've still got it in a frame at home

Take that, Lerner

[dave.woodhall]

I didn't sell my single share in Villa to Randy when I received the offer. I've still got it in a frame at home

Take that, Lerner

You have a piece of paper at home. The share is owned by Randy.