Zonal Marking

[Risso]

I'm quite happy to say I think Gerard is fucking clueless when it comes to the defence - I think he is - but it is a bit daft to ignore facts because they purely aren't convenient.

Convenient would be ignoring the 12 goals we conceded either side of those games.

No. That's irrelevant.

Chris said we had a spell of 6 games where we conceded 5 goals, indicating that we are capable of putting a run together.

VD said it was at the start of the season, you implied we hadn't done it, I was just pointing out that, actually, we have.

Chris was using it as evidence that when we had some of the senior players together, that the defence improved.  The fact that we conceded a shedload of goals other than in his carefully selected sample shows it's rubbish, whether you include cup games or not.

[Chris Smith]

Chris was using it as evidence that when we had some of the senior players together, that the defence improved.

Isn't it a fucker when facts get in the way of your prejudices?

The 2 games before were Man City (Warnock and Lichaj at full back), which most sensible people realise was a low point but we were and then Chelsea (where we played well) and the one straight after was Manu all away from home. Hardly caving in against shit teams

I haven't tried to claim anything other than when we have had our senior defenders available we have been better than when we haven't as evidence to support the rather obvious point that injuries have had a big impact on our season.

[Eigentor]

We've played 24 PL matches under GH. In 20 of those, two of Dunne/Cuellar/Collins have played the whole match.

In the first five of the 20 matches we conceded 1 goal per match on average.
In the next five the average was 2.4 goals/match.
In the five after that the average was 2.2 goals/match.
In the final five matches the average was 1.4 goals/match.

It seems pretty evident the the defence have gotten worse, then improved. Also, it may no be a coincidence that we were conceding most goals in the period when our central midfield consisted of players we have now loaned out to Championship sides.

[Villa'Zawg]

In our latest five matches the average was 2.0 goals/match

[Rip Van We Go Again]

In our latest five matches the average was 2.0 goals/match

Which gives you an idea of the mountain we have to climb before we even kick a ball.

[Merv]

In our latest five matches the average was 2.0 goals/match

Bolton lost 3-2 Walker, L Young, Clark, Baker
Man City lost 3-0 Herd, Dunne, Clark, Delph

Blackburn won 4-1 Walker Dunne Clark Baker
Blackpool drew 1-1 Walker Cuellar (Collins 1st half sub) Dunne Clark
Fulham drew 2-2 Walker Dunne Collins Clark

I've noticed something.

[KevinGage]

It's felt like we've needed to score at least two goals to have any hope of getting something for a large chunk of this season.

Even in our recent run, as a struggling side, if you'd said pre game we would score 3 at Chelsea 2 at home v Fulham 1 v Blackpool  away and 2 away to Bolton; you might have been cautiously optimistic that we'd win those games.

A half decent defence (nevermind a good one) and we might have managed a grand total of more than three points from that lot alone.

[Villa'Zawg]

In our latest five matches the average was 2.0 goals/match

Bolton lost 3-2 Walker, L Young, Clark, Baker
Man City lost 3-0 Herd, Dunne, Clark, Delph

Blackburn won 4-1 Walker Dunne Clark Baker
Blackpool drew 1-1 Walker Cuellar (Collins 1st half sub) Dunne Clark
Fulham drew 2-2 Walker Dunne Collins Clark

I've noticed something.

Eigentor and I were referring to PL matches only.

The missing one is Man Utd lost 3-1 Walker, Dunne, Collins, Clark

[Eigentor]

Eigentor and I were referring to PL matches only.

I was referring to PL matches in which two of Cuellar/Dunne/Collins was able to play the full match. That is the reason why my average was 1.4 and Villadawg's was 2.0.

[Karl Bridges]

If our central defenders are so shit and unreliable, then there was nothing stopping Houllier signing somebody in January.  We have about 235 central midfielders, yet it has been obvious from the off this season that the defence has gone to pot.

From what I gathered he tried for a LB & CB in Jan.

[Villa'Zawg]

Eigentor and I were referring to PL matches only.

I was referring to PL matches in which two of Cuellar/Dunne/Collins was able to play the full match. That is the reason why my average was 1.4 and Villadawg's was 2.0.

Sorry, I hadn't spotted that distinction.

[Merv]

Even so... I'd say of those five games I listed, the two where our defence was poor were the two games that we literally had a patched-up defence. Yes, we had a strong back four at Old Trafford... but that's Old Trafford.

[pauliewalnuts]

It seems pretty evident the the defence have gotten worse, then improved. Also, it may no be a coincidence that we were conceding most goals in the period when our central midfield consisted of players we have now loaned out to Championship sides.

That's something that hasn't been mentioned that much on this thread, but was (correctly) mentioned a lot at the time - for a prolonged spell we had a very flimsy central midfield which just let pressure be put on the back four, which is not going to be helping any defence.

We started against Man United, for example, with a central midfield pairing of Barry Bannan and Jonathon Hogg. That gives an idea of just how lightweight our middle has been at times this season.

[KevinGage]

That's fine Paulie, and for that period it really was a case of 'muddling through' and making the best of it.

But with NRC, Petrov, Makoun and co being available in our more recent games -as well as having as near close to our full strength backline available as possible, I'd have hoped to have seen more shut outs since then.

Yet our defence still looks suspect, the same errors often being repeated over and over again. The cast of characters may change, but the performance seems to remain the same.

[Risso]

We've conceded goals in just about every game this season, no matter who the defence or midfield is.  They come from dead balls and open play.   Our defensive play is just dire.