Summer transfer rumours, speculation and out-and-out b*ll*cks.

[achilles]

You could bring up a whole new subject and ask why we have had so many injuries.... is that just bad luck?

[Concrete John]

You could bring up a whole new subject and ask why we have had so many injuries.... is that just bad luck?

I'm not saying they're a bad thing, but I think we should have eased off the double training sessions when the injuries started piling up.

[Chris Smith]

As for Warnock and Beye would they have performed better than the people came in for?  Look at the record of the reserves after those 2 started playing compared to the rest of the season.  Neither of them should be anywhere near the first team, their attitudes this season have been like a cancer to the club, I say fair play to Houllier for sticking to his principals and leaving them well out in the cold, even if it does, on paper, weaken us I don't think it does on the pitch.

My argument would be that the situation could have been handled better so that the attitudes were kept in check and they would have been willing and able if called upon.  Yes, in an ideal world you'd tell 'em to fuck off and never set foot in the club again, but modern football is anything but an ideal world.

It depends what sort of a bad influenece they were on others. Sometimes you need to make an example of people to send a message to the rest. We're pontificating without access to all the facts so don't feel that we are in a position to say should have done this or should have done that.

[Concrete John]

As for Warnock and Beye would they have performed better than the people came in for?  Look at the record of the reserves after those 2 started playing compared to the rest of the season.  Neither of them should be anywhere near the first team, their attitudes this season have been like a cancer to the club, I say fair play to Houllier for sticking to his principals and leaving them well out in the cold, even if it does, on paper, weaken us I don't think it does on the pitch.

My argument would be that the situation could have been handled better so that the attitudes were kept in check and they would have been willing and able if called upon.  Yes, in an ideal world you'd tell 'em to fuck off and never set foot in the club again, but modern football is anything but an ideal world.

It depends what sort of a bad influenece they were on others. Sometimes you need to make an example of people to send a message to the rest. We're pontificating without access to all the facts so don't feel that we are in a position to say should have done this or should have done that.

Just about everything we say on here is without access to the full facts.

Players have egos and are spoilt little brats, this we all know.  Yet they can be 'handled' and still be of use to to club and team, which is something Houllier does seem poor at.  And I'll balance that out by saying that after their pissing about Dunne and Collins seem to be back and playing well again, so maybe he's improving this aspect of his management.   

[Merv]

It's not a new subject but yes, you could ask why. It's been covered a few times - probably a mix of bad luck (let's face it, last season we pretty much escaped injury free), post-30 year old players (Carew, Luke Young, Dunne, Petrov, Heskey) being naturally more susceptible to knocks, and yes, perhaps some down to increased training sessions. I also wonder whether one or two have been totally genuine (Ireland being injured..  was he?) and whether on a couple of occasions players haven't totally bust a gut to return quickly. But that has no basis of fact at all, it's just a creeping suspicion of mine.

Robbo, I agree. While by no means great, form since January was generally much better with most of the squad to choose from... and then it dipped again when we were forced to start picking a cobbled-together back four. We've been better again - four points in two games - now we've got senior defenders back. It's not a total get-out-of-jail card for Houllier but we've had more availability problems this season than any other team in the league.

[Shrek]

Merv this has been the biggest disappointment to me, how some supporters just don't seem to understand how weakened we were for much of the season. Forget the backroom squabbles and other sideshows this has been the fundamental reason for our poor season.

Spot on ROBBO

[Mazrim]

As for Warnock and Beye would they have performed better than the people came in for?  Look at the record of the reserves after those 2 started playing compared to the rest of the season.  Neither of them should be anywhere near the first team, their attitudes this season have been like a cancer to the club, I say fair play to Houllier for sticking to his principals and leaving them well out in the cold, even if it does, on paper, weaken us I don't think it does on the pitch.

My argument would be that the situation could have been handled better so that the attitudes were kept in check and they would have been willing and able if called upon.  Yes, in an ideal world you'd tell 'em to fuck off and never set foot in the club again, but modern football is anything but an ideal world.

Yes and Houllier reconciled Collins and Dunne after gross misconduct and they were both immediately back in the starting line up whereas MON froze almost everybody out who wasnt in his 14 or 15 players and some of those he had bought, sometimes for big money, were not even spoken to, never mind used.
I wouldnt be using MON as a shining example of how to deal with delicate matters personally.

But all this is just running around in circles. People are divided on how much an issue the injury situation was. Some think it was very significant (myself) and some think its wasnt all that significant (which I cant understand, but there you go).
How he has performed otherwise is another debate but the comparison with MONs first season is not only relevant but pretty accurate and so far very similar.
When you factor in that he came into the season late with no preparation and a far worse injury situation than MON ever had at any point, surely you can see why he should be cut a bit more slack than he has been?

Of course, I think the simple fact is that he's not liked by many. Fans dont indentify with him as much as they did MON and it makes a big difference.
Personally, I dont care. I just want him to do a good job and his superb career record has earned him that. A record better than his predecessor. I hope he'll get time to prove himself here.
Of course, a run of good results would help.

[Concrete John]

Yes and Houllier reconciled Collins and Dunne after gross misconduct and they were both immediately back in the starting line up whereas MON froze almost everybody out who wasnt in his 14 or 15 players and some of those he had bought, sometimes for big money, were not even spoken to, never mind used.
I wouldnt be using MON as a shining example of how to deal with delicate matters personally.

But all this is just running around in circles. People are divided on how much an issue the injury situation was. Some think it was very significant (myself) and some think its wasnt all that significant (which I cant understand, but there you go).
How he has performed otherwise is another debate but the comparison with MONs first season is not only relevant but pretty accurate and so far very similar.
When you factor in that he came into the season late with no preparation and a far worse injury situation than MON ever had at any point, surely you can see why he should be cut a bit more slack than he has been?

MON didn't select players for the footballing reason that he liked to keep a settled side and hated to change it too much.  Houllier likes a bit of rotation, so why is someone like Warnock not involved in that, especially during a defensive injury crisis?

I give him a large benefit of the doubt as far as the injuries go and agree that they were significant.  My argument is that he's had enough good players available enough of the time to have gotten more points from the games than he has.  And that's also where I think the comparison to 06/07 falls down as the average ability of the 11 we could put out is much better this season.  I suppose the extreme example would be who would finish higher - Man Utd during an injury plagued season or an injury free Wigan?  Villa 06/07 v Villa 10/11 is not as stark a contrast granted, but I still think the comparison falls down for this reason.

[Merv]

Another reason the comparison falls down, I feel, is the overall strength of the PL. Everything's squeezed much tighter now, it's much more competitive. In 2006-07 you had the likes of Watford and Sheff Utd, you always, back then, had at least one team way way adrift at the bottom. So, would MON's 06-07 team finish anywhere near as high as 11th in this league?

[Mazrim]

MON didn't select players for the footballing reason that he liked to keep a settled side and hated to change it too much.  Houllier likes a bit of rotation, so why is someone like Warnock not involved in that, especially during a defensive injury crisis?

I give him a large benefit of the doubt as far as the injuries go and agree that they were significant.  My argument is that he's had enough good players available enough of the time to have gotten more points from the games than he has.  And that's also where I think the comparison to 06/07 falls down as the average ability of the 11 we could put out is much better this season.  I suppose the extreme example would be who would finish higher - Man Utd during an injury plagued season or an injury free Wigan?  Villa 06/07 v Villa 10/11 is not as stark a contrast granted, but I still think the comparison falls down for this reason.

Warnock isnt selected because, apart from playing shite when he was selected, he slagged the club, staff, players and region off. He even stank up the reserve team. This is a player you want to see play? Not for me.

I'd also disagree with your assesment of the comparative squads. I think that they are far more similar than you say.
In fact, the likes of Mellberg, Laursen, Cahill, Bouma and Barry are as good if not better than the likes of Collins, Dunne, Baker, whoever is playing at left back as opposed to Bouma, Petrov and so on. Both also had some quality young players. But its a matter of opinion.
Plus MON had access to them more often that season as his senior players were more available.

Yes, we could have had more points than we have. The same was very much true of that season too. Nobody is arguing that Houllier has got the most out of the team, just that there are genuine reasons in some cases as to why that is.

[villa for life]

The cause of the injuries is a good question but we could also ask why we weren't able to do an Everton and maintain form and a good league position even with injuries. They had a terrible time of it both last season and this season losing Cahill, Arteta, Saha , Jagielka for long periods without flirting with relegation or using it as an excuse

[citizenDJ]

I don't think I've spotted this one mentioned in the thread before, a link to Lee Camp of Nottingham Forest.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_6873096,00.html

[Irreverent ad]

Good Keeper. I would be happy with either him or Westwood.

[Concrete John]

Mazrim, I think we're getting into an almost circular argument and we're never goint to agree on this one.

All I'll say in closing is that I'll judge him more fully next season, as I expect him to be here, and hopefully we'll have no injuries so we can see without question how good a job he's doing.

[Mazrim]

Mazrim, I think we're getting into an almost circular argument and we're never goint to agree on this one.

All I'll say in closing is that I'll judge him more fully next season, as I expect him to be here, and hopefully we'll have no injuries so we can see without question how good a job he's doing.

Aye, I was about to say more or less the same thing.