Summer transfer rumours, speculation and out-and-out b*ll*cks.

[Risso]

He could still do better or worse than MON did in his first season.
In fact I very much think he will.

You're right Maz, it's almost certain that he will do better or worse.  In fact I'd put money on it.

[Mazrim]

This season has been full of ups and downs, mostly downs.  Much of it has been MON's fault for walking out the way he did.  I think Houllier tried to change things too quickly and was tainted by his own stupid comments about Villa being a traditionally 8th to 12th type club.  Perhaps something got lost in the translation!!

Houllier then lost some of the players with the way he wanted to run the club.  Double sessions, mainly because the players didn't have a proper pre-season as MON had given up on them.  The downfall starting after the Carling Cup game against Manchester United and I think the writing was on the wall for MON with some of the expensive benchwarmers.  He'd hit the glass ceiling.

I neither dislike Houllier or feel that he'd be missed if he went.  Part of me wants a new Manager because that brings some excitement.  But, this summer is likely to be exciting anyway, if Houllier stays, as he'll get the backing to justify not sacking him.  Some good bits, some bads bits.  Keep him, sack him?  I'm completely torn.

I agree to a degree.
I'm not especially fond of him, he wasnt who I wanted as manager and I think he's made some mistakes. Especially in communication.
But I sympathise with what he's had to put up with and the difficulty of the task and I think he's had some harsh stick too.
But there you go.
Who was ever really going to come in to a job that had just had a tyrannical manager (love him or hate him, he was a tyrant), fix all the issues (fractious dressing room, shit aimless training, poor levels of fitness, losing a star player) and cope with massive injuries and do a stellar job? With no pre-season (a massive issue) and no time to buy players?

[Mazrim]

He could still do better or worse than MON did in his first season.
In fact I very much think he will.

You're right Maz, it's almost certain that he will do better or worse.  In fact I'd put money on it.

Alright smartarse. I meant better.

[Risso]

Heh heh!

[KevinGage]

The idea of apeing barca involves 2 very basic elements.

In possession: Play in triangles, always give the man on the ball options (this is where the english game falls way behind the technically better nations and it's why we struggle at international level) keeping the ball is easy if there's always a simple pass on.

Out of possession: Make them play where you want them to be then win it back when they try to break the shackles.  For Barca they isolate the midfielders to make the centre backs the only out ball (but with Messi or Villa floating around them) and try to frustrate them into trying to go past a player or punt it forward.

It's really that simple.  That Barca are doing that with technically superb footballers who can all run for days on end makes it easier.  Having a central midfielder who can pass through the eye of a needle (xavi) and a forward who is quick, has great control and times his runs perfectly, as well as being the best finisher in the world (messi) makes things easier still.  Too many people put their success straight at the feet of the players though.  Guardiola has them playing such a simple plan that it's easy for the players to adapt to the opposition.

There is nothing wrong with placing the emphasis on triangles, possession football and all the rest of it.

You have to marry that with a pragmatism and awareness of the league you're in and the opposition you face though. Barcelona have a midfield containing a lot of 5ft7/8  10 stone players - but then so do a number of opponents they face in the Spanish league.  They'll face an English side two, maybe three times a season at most.

English sides have 38 league games of war, games either played at a frenetic pace or with an attritional emphasis on physicality. Or more often than not both. The arguments for and against this method -the failings of the national side because of it and all the rest- have been done to death. Suffice to say it is still the way most sides are set up in this country ( that English sides often get to the latter stages of CL competition would indicate it's not entirely without merit either).

We are (or were) a very good counter attacking side in one of the most physical leagues in the World. Where we messed up (in my opinion) is not refining this style. Making ourselves an even better  counter attacking side, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.  If you look at the Arsenal side of Henry, Pires and co at their peak (rather than the current lot who tend to over elaborate) they provided some example as to what really outstanding counter attacking sides can do. To the point that sides were nervous to actually gain a corner at Highbury, for fear of being countered and having Henry, Pires et.c breaking at pace and running at their backline.  We didn't have the same calibre of player as that Arsenal side of the mid noughties, it's true. But at our counter attacking best on the road in 08/09 you would often hear an audible groan/ sharp intake of breath from the home fans when Barry or Petrov set Gabby or Young away with a through ball from deep. It's as they expected to concede a goal. And they often did.

The things we could have improved on would be to ensure that we gained the ball quicker from deep, that we had an even more robust defence capable and confident to draw the opposition very close to them and that players who's delivery we relied on (Ash in particular) were sharp enough to make the most of any opportunities that came there way.   This could even be applied at home. The Arsenal side at it's peak in the mid noughties often had to contend with sides that wanted to go there and park the bus. At some stage though, even the most limited of opponents have to attack -and that's where you gain your opportunity. If you're switched on, sharp and clinical enough.

Perhaps -in time- we'd have seen a natural progression towards a more balanced approach, maybe if we had midfielders happy to sit deep and shred the opposition with the quality of their through balls. But you don't wilfully nullify your main threat to play a type of football completely unsuited to the personnel you possess.

[not3bad]

You also cannot compare the off-field situation O'Neill enjoyed with the one Houllier has had to put up with, yet O'Neill's first season was thought of as one of progress while Houllier is condemned.

We finished 12 points clear of relegation that season, having never really been threatened with the drop.  You just can't say the same this season.

I clearly remember being a little concerned about the 'R' word until we won at Blackburn around the same time of year, we never looked back after that.

Yep, just after what would become the traditional March Meltdown IIRC.

So if (and that's a big if), we 'didn't look back' now, then Houllier's first season would be an alomost identical result to O'Neill's.

[Concrete John]

A couple of things:-
1.  I see 'shit aimless training' being mentioned.  The 'shit' bit is very subjective, but from what we know of how MON set things up everything was focused on winning the next game, so hardly 'aimless'. 
2.  We can talk all we like about styles of play and needing more of his own players in, but look at the last England squad and tell me we don't have enough good players to do what he wants?  Could it just be that his methods aren't working and it's NOT the players fault?
3.  Other than the NRC incident and some vague ITK rumblings about Warnock, we did not have any discipline issues previously, certainly not to the extent of our 1st choice CB pairing going all tag team on Sid.

For all the issues he inhertied, which I do think get exagerated sometimes, we have to be able to work out what is a genuine reason and what is an excuse.  Injuries?  Genuine reason.  Can't change the zonal marking system mid-season?  Excuse.

I think we'll survive and am resigned to him being here next season, I just can't look forward to it with any great optimism.   

[Monty]

KG, I won't answer individual points because that would take hundreds of years. Only a few points.

Firstly, the idea that Barcelona aren't a physical side (and that saying we should take their playing style as a role model is to denounce physicality) is bollocks. Have you seen them out of possession? They're the most tenacious, grafty, stamina-driven bunch around. Add to which, yes, they have players like Pique and Puyol, so physicality (and height, in Pique's case) is important at the back. But I can't put it better than Xavi, who said that the Puyol types "have to adapt to the passing system, and not the other way around". Very important.

Here's the myth: height matters in midfield. Does it? Does it fuck. The man after whom the modern holding role was named, and who is often brought up as the kind of player many on here would like to see at VP, was Claude Makalele - 5'8'' at the most. Our central midfield is lacking energy, stamina and a certain feistiness (as mentioned above with Barca) since Milner left - 5'9'' James Milner. Inversely, Michael Carrick may be 6'1'' but you'd hardly call him a physical dynamo. Very few if any games are ever won on height in midfield. Skill and other physical attributes like pace and stamina, even strength (which is actually unrelated to height), are infinitely more important.

Secondly, I will answer one of your points, KG - that we should have made ourselves even better at counter-attacking, and that would have sufficed to improve us. I'm sorry, but that's just entirely missed all the problems we had at home last year, all the problems we had when the opposition scored first, all the problems with our style of football. Like you say, away from home, you could hear the home fans groaning whenever Barry or Petrov set Ash or Gabby away on the counter. Counter-attacking was never the problem. However, though all teams need to counter-attack well (apart from Barcelona, and this would be one area where you can't ape them), ALL successful teams can break sides down at home who've come to defend with passing football. We almost never could. The example of Arsenal's great side is nonsensical and erroneous because, while of course they counter-attacked brilliantly, they also broke teams down at home. To do that, you have to play possession football these days.

Finally, the thing that may well be GH's fault is misunderstanding that his players perhaps aren't good enough to play this way in many respects, or that they're so unused to it the adjustment period would be longer and more painful than he'd imagined. Maybe he'd thought that a side with three successive Premier League sixth-place finishes should have the quality to adjust to this style so quickly. All of this shows perhaps just how strange, paradoxical and unique a man and a manager Martin O'Neill really is.

[JUAN PABLO]

Nobody mentioned Ged wants to sign Kim Källström from Lyon for £6 million.     Could see this happenning.  Be nice to get rid of Ireland to the barcodes for £6 million too.

[Mazrim]

John, the comment on training was based on the fact several players came out and said so. It's also what Ive been told by a coach I sometimes speak to, but I'll keep those details to myself.
The training was quite pathetic and involved almost no technical work and very little to do with tactics.
Which is a shame because otherwise MON put a very good team together and with a bit more focus on these areas, would have been more successful and by that I mean a top 4 place and maybe a cup or two.


I'm not sure what the relevance of having a few players in the England squad is and what its saying to you.
The three players are regulars in the England squad now because they've been playing well in Houlliers Villa team, surely?
The problem hasnt been Bent, Downing and Young anyway. It's been letting lots and lots of silly goals in, which is a direct result of our defenders being in poor condition (physically and mentally) or injured and having to play makeshift players and kids and poor preparation in preseason.

If that's an excuse, so be it. Its the also what I believe to be the truth.
Its not a pass for Houllier though. Its time to end the season strongly, put all the bullshit behind us and plan for the future.

[Mazrim]

Nobody mentioned Ged wants to sign Kim Källström from Lyon for £6 million.     Could see this happenning.  Be nice to get rid of Ireland to the barcodes for £6 million too.

Another player Ive wanted to sign for years. The 5 year delay is in effect
Good all round player, strong, busy with a great range of passing. I always imagined he'd flourish in this league.

[Greg N'Ash]

Nobody mentioned Ged wants to sign Kim Källström from Lyon for £6 million.     Could see this happenning.  Be nice to get rid of Ireland to the barcodes for £6 million too.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Pardew tries to get that deal rubber stamped by the board.

"you want 6m for what?!....."

[Mazrim]

Pardew has more chance of getting his hands on the Ark of the Covenant than the Carroll money.

[JJ-AV]

Nobody mentioned Ged wants to sign Kim Källström from Lyon for £6 million.     Could see this happenning.  Be nice to get rid of Ireland to the barcodes for £6 million too.

Where has this been linked? We need a Swede.

[Monty]

On full-backs, I read in the Guardian that Jose Bosingwa would be in the last year of his contract this summer and is available. Could we get him? Hardly set the world on fire recently but I remember he was very good to start with at Chelsea, and perhaps with a good run of games (he's had Ivanovic in front of him recently) he could hit those heights again. We might be able to afford his transfer fee because of his contract situation, but I wonder what sort of wages he'd be after.