Summer transfer rumours, speculation and out-and-out b*ll*cks.

[garyshawsknee]

I remember that 06-07 season, when we couldn't buy a win for so long. We scraped past Watford at home, with Baros missing a hat-trick of one-on-ones. That always sticks out in my mind when I think back to that first O'Neill season - the PL had truly woeful teams back then. This season no-one is totally stranded at the bottom. Three, four seasons ago Wigan (on 31 pts, aren't they?) might probably be in 16th, 17th at this stage of the season, rather than bottom.

That was the game where you could see that M'ON thought Baros was a useless tool,and he was right.

[KevinGage]

The point I keep making is that there were reasons why we finished 11th that season, there are reasons why we may well finish in roughly the same position this season, and yet one was acceptable while the other has seen an unprecedented outpouring of hysteria and bile.

Yes, some reactions have been OTT from the lunatic fringe, but that doesn't mean his record is any good.  I think the crux of the matter is what those reasons were and which, if any, are the fault of the respective managers.

06/07 - main problem was a squad that was suffering from under investment for a number of years.  Some good players, but ultimately a team that was heading for a relegation scrap in most people's eyes.  The takeover then happened too late for any significant recruitment, other than Petrov, with Jan being a great window for us as it needed to be.  You may disagree, but our biggest issue was the quality of the players.

10/11 - main problem seems to be the adaption to a new style.  The old manager walked at a bad time, so we struggled getting the right replacement, which in turn meant we pretty much missed the summer transfer window.  After that the new boss then had bad injuries to contend with, but at the times when these weren't biting as hard results did not significantly improve.  He also had a troubled dressing room to contend with, which was not the case prior to his arrival.  I think this season the players have been there, but for one reason or another have not performed to the level they are capable of either individually or collectively - and that's the managers responsibility!     

Agreed John.

The injuries we endured around Nov/ Dec this season were bad, no getting away from it. So bad results around  that period could -to a degree- be explained away by that alone. 

But what about the rest of the campaign?

In terms of the strength of squads that MON and GH inherited there is really no comparison. MON's side did have a core of decent players (even if Baros, Bouma, Sorensen and Laursen were missing for large stretches of that campaign). GH inherited the bulk of a side who had been challenging for top 4 for the previous two seasons, contained  a number of England internationals past and present, and was being tipped as an outside bet for the title by Ferguson and Wenger to name but two.

[eastie]

Its all well saying GH inherited a very good team but it was a team that played a totally different style of football to what he wanted and it has been difficult to completely chasnge the method of football we play once the season was underway, many of the players he has are not suited to the system he wishes to use and i guess a fair few of them know they will surplus to requirements come the summer.

[Monty]

Apologies in advance but I am about to use the 't' word.

A mid table finish has to be seen as acceptable in a transition season. So despite all the trials and tribulations Houllier will have done an acceptable job if we finish between 8th and 14th. I think there might need to be some tinkering with the structure in the summer but I'd expect it to be enough for him to still be here come August.

I agree. As Eastie said, the stylistic transition has been a tricky one. It's clear that MON's style was thoroughly limited, even though he got the players performing better than their standard (rather like Watford in the '80s). It's perfectly natural for GH to come into the club and look at this frankly amateurish and old-fashioned approach, completely at odds with the ambition of the club (and which MON probably knew had run its course and would no longer be as successful this year) and want to change it to something a bit more modern. Sadly the players, complacent and lazy, appear to have reacted very, very badly to this modern innovation known as "run-ning", and the season was doomed from then on.

I know, over-simplistic, and there have been many faults on GH's side. But MON's legacy - over-paid, unfit, complacent, aging, technically deficient players (especially in defence), under-used youth players and a general style not conducive to progress - has hardly helped.

[eamonn]

We were seen as an outside bet for the title?! New one to me... Fergie always talks us up before we generally roll over to them when we play them.

The squad O'Neill inherited is made out to be poor in which case O'Dreary did a marvellous job keeping us up. I don't agree, we under-achieved with Doolally in his last season and given that O'Neill signed Petrov, Young and Carew all during his first season, I think mid-table was the least to be expected.

[Monty]

We were seen as an outside bet for the title?! New one to me... Fergie always talks us up before we generally roll over to them when we play them.

The squad O'Neill inherited is made out to be poor in which case O'Dreary did a marvellous job keeping us up. I don't agree, we under-achieved with Doolally in his last season and given that O'Neill signed Petrov, Young and Carew all during his first season, I think mid-table was the least to be expected.

Not poor, but on the way down, without a shadow of a doubt, and certainly limited.

[WikiVilla]

Its all well saying GH inherited a very good team but it was a team that played a totally different style of football to what he wanted and it has been difficult to completely chasnge the method of football we play once the season was underway, many of the players he has are not suited to the system he wishes to use and i guess a fair few of them know they will surplus to requirements come the summer.

Therein lieth the problem eastie, GED tried to shape things his way far too quickly
You would expect a manager of his age and experience to have judged it better

[paul_e]

Its all well saying GH inherited a very good team but it was a team that played a totally different style of football to what he wanted and it has been difficult to completely chasnge the method of football we play once the season was underway, many of the players he has are not suited to the system he wishes to use and i guess a fair few of them know they will surplus to requirements come the summer.

Therein lieth the problem eastie, GED tried to shape things his way far too quickly
You would expect a manager of his age and experience to have judged it better

How many times will this need to be said...

The ENTIRE coaching team left there was NO ONE other than the players who were aware of the training methods, etc.

A new manager turning up and asking the players to explain the tactics and training methods would be a joke so he had no choice but to change things

[WikiVilla]

Half the country knew how we played, it really shouldn't be that difficult for a top class, experienced coach

[KevinGage]

That doesn't really stack up.

In an age when video analysis is readily available he had easy access to a mountain of information about how we set up, what the players are used to and all the rest of it.

MON hadn't been at the club during Milner's first spell, for example. Yet he'd seen enough to try to complete a deal in the summer of 2006.

Whilst not directly involved in the first team, Cowans and McDonald would be close enough to proceedings to fill in any knowledge gaps too. The idea that GH couldn't possibly have had any idea how we were set up, how we initiate attacks and how we defend set pieces because MON's mates left when he did is laughable. He should have made it his business to know. Talking to rival managers might have helped even. After all, it was often levelled at us that we were pretty predictable under MON. On an estimated salary of £3.5-4 million (depending on which reports you wish to believe) per annum, its the bare minimum to expect that he would be thorough in everything, background checks, preferred formations, strengths/ weaknesses, the lot.

Yet now we're supposed to believe that he walked into the gig like Richard Prior in See No Evil Hear No Evil.

I've known good managers who've hit the skids at VP before. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. I've also seen some right duffers down there. Yet I can't recall any other manager who has fostered such a culture of excuses, and seemingly has a fair smattering of people ready and willing to tie themselves in knots to play the same game.

Don't make any excuses for the guy. He's quite capable of looking after himself in that regard.

[eastie]

Of course he knew how we played under o neill, but it is not the style of football or system that he likes his teams to play and as manager had every right to change things, the problem being that too many players were limited and not able to easily adapt to a more fluid pass and move style of football.

Im sure he would have loved central defenders who were comfortable in possession and attacking full backs but he had to work with what he had and now knows who will be good enough to stay and who will be surplus to requirements, given a summer window I'd expect him to have a much better balanced team next season and an exciting one too!

[Clampy]

Its all well saying GH inherited a very good team but it was a team that played a totally different style of football to what he wanted and it has been difficult to completely chasnge the method of football we play once the season was underway, many of the players he has are not suited to the system he wishes to use and i guess a fair few of them know they will surplus to requirements come the summer.

Were we playing a totally different style to last season though? To me that's a bit of a myth. All we do differently under GH is keep the ball and pass it round more. MON played with 2 wingers and we're doing the same now.

[supertom]

Some blame must lie at Randy's door too. It was a poor call on his part, to hire Houllier, not least because of the Ged's style. Perhaps there-in lies a consequence of his footballing naivity. But it's certainly been a case that our methods and style change under Houllier has been far too drastic, and results have been duly effected.

However I don't believe it's purely the style Houllier wants to play, but also downright inept decisions and tactics at times.

Much like Hodgeson at Liverpool though, it's a case of wrong man for the job. Houllier could prove quite successful at another club, more readily suited to his style, but here, no. Hodgeson is doing quite well at WBA. They're probably safe, and they looked like going down when he first arrived.

[eastie]

Of course it's not all down to the change in style, houllier has shown poor man management at times and slagging players off publicly far too often , injuries, the timing of his appointment and poor player attitudes have all contributed to a dreadful season and nobody can really claim to be blameless for this season.

We just need to survive and look ahead and I expect a huge change in playing staff during the summer.

[KevinGage]

I know, over-simplistic, and there have been many faults on GH's side. But MON's legacy - over-paid, unfit, complacent, aging, technically deficient players (especially in defence)...

Just out of interest, who are all these other technically proficient libero's at other clubs then?  Of the clubs around us last year, the likes of Dawson, Bassong, Skirtel, Carragher Agger and co don't leap out at me as cultured defenders. They are stoppers first and foremost.

So expecting something from us that is far superior to the sides we were competing with seems a little unfair to me, as does comparisons with fluid Barcelona-style formations.

Dunne and Collins for all their various faults aren't complete shit houses on the ball. Dunne can control it under pressure, bring the ball down and play it simple. Collins actually has (or had) a decent range of passing when the radar is working. This was evident when he first came.

One of our better moments on Sunday was when we drew Newcastle in deep and Petrov hit a sublime ball to send Gabby away into space to run at their back line. That can be just as exciting and a technically correct method of approach as aimless, impotent Mowbray-esque possession football in non threatening areas.

We needed progress, sure. A few more strings to our bow and a bit of variation in our play. But it should have been evolution not revolution. We weren't in such bad a state that the whole thing needed to be ripped up and started again.