Something I don't understand

[fredm]

I secret is very simple, you get some big ugly terrifying bastard who doesn't neccessarily have to be a great player but is willing to die for the cause and make him Captain. We are a team of gentlemen on the pitch and a bunch of whinging noncies off. They need the said Captain to get them alone and explain the meaning of trial and retribution.

I agree with this 100%.  When did we last have a "demanding" captain?

Southgate wasn't, nor was Barry and I don't think Petrov is.  Laursen probably not quite so nice as these but not a b*****d.

But it is not only the captain, we just do not have people in our team who will give their last ounce to win a tackle; be first to the ball etc.  We have always been too nice.

I don't like saying it but what we need is two or three Joey Bartons in the team (now goes and washes mouth out).  People like that who despise losing.  The Keanes, Vieras, Terry, Carragher of this world.

[pauliewalnuts]

MON was very good at this, I know he had his faults but he always (well nearly) got 100% out of the players.

Yeah, apart from Luke Young, Nicky Shorey, Habib Beye, Steve Sidwell, Curtis Davies, Marlon Harewood, Shaun Maloney, and Nigel Reo-Coker.

Perhaps part of the motivation lay in how he treated the unmotivated. A bit like the 'bitch' in the McKenzie Crook episode of 'Accused'.

Maybe you're right.

It still doesn't mean he got anything like 100 percent motivation from all the players as originally suggested, mind.

Fair point. I was hoping (and optimistic) that Houllier would keep MON's favourites onside, and re-motivate the others. Never mind.

I think the problem is that Houllier might be using the same approach - favourites and non favourites - with the difference that none of them like him back.

[Eigentor]

I think the problem is that Houllier might be using the same approach - favourites and non favourites - with the difference that none of them like him back.

I think the problem is that Houllier has no time for players without 100% focus (whether they have a valid reason or not), and when he doesn't like a player, there is no way back. As a result, we have to play too many youngsters at the same time. Their confidence is more fragile, and their performances are more inconsistent, and at the moment we are in a catch 22 where low confidence feeds poor performances, and vice versa.

[MarkM]

To comment on Dave's thread,

I think part of it is down to risk and reward

When the players are young and trying to get contracts at big clubs the risks in the way they play may be high [injury, bad reputation etc...] but the possible rewards are massive [money, money, money]

Now when they make it to the likes of the Villa the only possible reward is winning things, so the risk and rewards structure is destroyed.

Players have the rewards whether they take the risk or not, and what happens if they play shit and loose?

FUCK ALL, they still get their £XX,XXX per week

And if they do play well and rise above everyone else? WE SELL THEM [usually to Manure or now Citah]

We have become a second rate feeder club for the top 4/6, we know it, the players know it, the owners know it.

So you ask why they don't bother? they answer is because they dont have to

Mark

[Grande Pablo]

I had a similar debate with a couple of Wolves fans yesterday who find themselves in a similar position.  Our conclusion is there's no incentive any more.  You can be a Warnock, or a Steve Flectcher, get GBP30-50K a week win, lose or draw.  The players are holding the power, whereas in the day of my debating partners players scraped GBP100 a week & all the cash was made by your Ken Wheldon-esque chairmen.

Comparing this with our cricket team who I believe have a genuine, collective aspiration to be the best in the world, you just can't see that from any football team, in my opinion.

Villa's problems maybe stem back before MON - the heady days of JG & the signings of your Wastons & Stones showed that success bought with cash quickly & without method is exceedingly short term.

[PaulWinch again]

I am furious at those players who clearly don't give a shit, but equally I feel sorry for those who are trying and look crestfallen.

[NeilH]

Whilst I agree on the incentive side and modern footballers not giving a sh**, it does not explain why Blackpool are out there every week doing all the things that our lot are not. Yes they are paid less, but they are still going to be multi-millionaires.

I feel deeply sorry for the fans right now and if I still was in the UK and had my season ticket I would be feeling sick to the stomach given the non-performances of our stars. It is utterly inexcusable to perform like this given what they only a few ago were capable of.

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

Fans and the media get too carried away about whether a particular team is committed or not. As soon as a team is losing its as if many of those players are not trying and not caring. Similarly a winning team is viewed as all the individuals being something special with spirit, commitment to the cause, focus, etc.

You can have entire league of highly committed players, or a load of teams with a half hearted attutude. They can all be receiving obscene quantities of money, or amateurs receiving nothing. One thing remains constant with all league tables,  the games won column always adds up to the same figure as the games lost column.

[Witton Warrior]

[quote author=Grande Pablo
Villa's problems maybe stem back before MON

I totally agree - all those seasons of promise followed by decline, all those players who fall away when given a long contract, all those ex-Liverpool has-beens etc etc... MON staved off the situation we are now in but all he did was hide the festering sore of mediocrity that has become my beloved Villa - this is just what would have happened the season after DOL's removal.

Don't think it will matter if we sack Houllier or not, we will probably escape relegation bevause of the awfulness of other teams. My hope is we hang onto the kids.

The problem is I think the players know all this and there is an inevitability to their performances now. The stats from the Spuds game showed 10 shots on target but only one went in; that's about ability.

[Chris Smith]

To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?

Maybe rather than losing desire, it's the loss of confidence and how frail it can become when under pressure to perform at the highest level that has a big effect. Playing to 10 men and a dog with no media spotlight for years doesn't prepare you for everything. Obviously they are amply rewarded for whatever perceived disadvantages they encounter as top-flight players but I imagine self-doubt can affect most minds. 

That's my take on it too. A player lacking in confidence will look unmotivated because he's scared shitless of making a mistake. It is also self perpetuating.

This is where the coaching staff and the senior players come in. It's time for them to take responibility.

[Tony]

To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?

Yes it's all about money, the Ashley Cole situation at Arsenal summed it up when he was upset they were only offering him £55K a week, the club he'd supported as a boy weren't prepared to offer him £60K a week and he was upset about it. There is no moptivation factor when you're being paid this much money, you have more money than you can shake a stick at, the extra money at this point is purely to find more ways to waste it, you don't need it, but once you're being paid these sums, you don't have to try, you don't have to listen to the boss.

Remember Sasa Curcic? He came to Villa, played a blinder on his debut, looked a top quality player and within no time at all seemed more interested in getting a nose job.

The amount of money paid to players is counter productive, whereas at Blackpool, where the money simply isn't there, those players are busting a gut, some of them in the hope that they will get to a club that will pay them silly money, they have the motivation still.

[The Man With A Stick]

Never thought I would ever think it, let alone say it, but I think we need a couple of nasty b******s in the side.

I've been saying that for about three years.  We're way too nice.

[pablopicasso_10]

i think its because players these days live on another planet and think they are bigge and better than anything ever...

footballers on the whole, are a disgusting breed...

[PeterWithe]

When after the work we play once a week in our five-a-side football team for nothing but our pride, we always want to win, we squabble for a penalty granted, for a handball, we get angry when we are substituted

But you're Italian players, everyone knows you get more passionate and emotional than English players ;-)

The other thing Italian players have to content with is that if they put in a performance like ours did yesterday, then there stands a good chance of the fans turning up at the training ground and setting fire to their Ferraris.

[garyshawsknee]

Until performance related pay gets brought in,it's always gonna be the same,and that's not just at Villa but at all clubs. There is no emotional attachment to clubs anymore,unless you're a young layer who has come through the ranks. Players have the role of whores,with agents as pimps,and clubs as clients...not that i'm an expert in that field!