Gerard Houllier

[Concrete John]

You're right, we don't know, but the point is that you originally said "I'd have gone for Jol" with the implication that the board didn't, you were the one who used it as part of your argument. If as you say, we don't know, why use their failure to do so as a stick to beat them with?

I'm hardly using it as a stick to beat anyone.  This all originates from the point that some believe Martin has a lot of blame for our present predicament, which I disagree with, and that his timing meant Houllier was the best would could get, which I again disagree with. 

I do not think Jol was approached and am using that as an example of how things could have been done better post MON's resignation.  Can I prove it?  No I can't.

Being as honest and as objective as you can, can you tell me were you picking our next manager Houllier would even have been in your top 5 candidates?   

[WALTERS WARRIORS]

A somewhat cyclical argument, but the very fact that had MON not left when he had, Houllier wouldn't even have been considered for the job, shows that you can't pretend MON's departure had no effect.

Sorry, but when MON left none of us were considerign him for the job.  It's the way Randy wanted to go so fair enough, but if you jacked your job tomorrow and whoever replaced you was shite, would you accept you were partially to blame for a decision you had no hand in?  And with all the arguments about the timing of his departure, lets not forget that the club took their time in finding a new man and didn't jump into anything.

Martin left us in a much better state than we are in now, so what had happened since he's gone is simply not his fault.

Mmmm how can I put  this in a way you might understand.

If Father Christmas left his job on Christmas eve, it would be very difficult to replace him in time for the big event, and indeed the choice of stand in Father Christmas would be rather limited too. Whoever came in would find it difficult replacing such a pivotal figure at such a pivotal time even if the picture was rosy and the previous Father Christmas had left things in a great state. Unfortunately things weren't left in a great state, though maybe some that were blinded by the magic of Christmas and the faerie's  sparkle thought it was.

Now we've all had a bad Christmas because we didn't get the presents we wanted. The new Father Christmas hasn't exactly covered himself in glory, but he hasn't been helped by some of his helpers,  and some of his key sleigh pulling reindeer that were meant to help him deliver his presents to us deserving Villa fans, got themselves injured or have gone AWOL. We shouldn't be too harsh on him though, he came in when everything was in full flow and with the wheels just primed to come off the sleigh and he has had very little opportunity to gain any control as the wheels were already in motion. Given the time of his appointment he couldn't even get the mechanics in he wanted to try and fix everything that was wrong. The simple fact of the matter is that most of the causal chains that buggered up Christmas were put in motion long before Christmas and the ones that weren't were ones that the incumbent Father Christmas had no control over. Maybe if he'd had that little bit of magic dust everything would be much better now, though we would be blinded to the underlying reality by that dust,  but it's a rare commodity these days, and unfortunately he didn't seem to have it, or enough of it, to have a positive effect. It would be unfair however to blame him for not fixing the mess he inherited considering when he inherited it.

The moral of the story? It was MoN that killed Christmas.
 

That is now my favourite xmas story. Makes a lot of sense .............

[midnite]

Paint MON green and he looks like the grinch...

[villa for life]

I don't get the "who else were we to choose" argument. If you've got a wad of cash and there aren't any good shares to buy, do you just think "fuck it, I'm going to buy this crappy one anyway" or do you leave your money in the bank until something good becomes available?

[pauliewalnuts]

I do not think Jol was approached and am using that as an example of how things could have been done better post MON's resignation.  Can I prove it?  No I can't.

In which case it doesn't really stand up as an argument, it's as much idle conjecture as the people on here moaning that Houllier called Lichaj a disgrace.

Being as honest and as objective as you can, can you tell me were you picking our next manager Houllier would even have been in your top 5 candidates?   

Look back at the list of people we were being linked with. In that case, yes.

And what are the top 5 candidates measured from?

You suspect Martin Jol was one of them - he about to start a season with one of the biggest clubs in Europe, with a CL campaign to look forward to. I don't.

The managers I remember us being most strongly linked with included such stellar names as Curbishley, Bradley and Sven. I was happier with Houllier than i was with any of those.

Let me ask you a question - do you accept that it is much harder to find a new manager five days before the start of a new season than, say, in May?

[pauliewalnuts]

I don't get the "who else were we to choose" argument. If you've got a wad of cash and there aren't any good shares to buy, do you just think "fuck it, I'm going to buy this crappy one anyway" or do you leave your money in the bank until something good becomes available?

Shares aren't something you necessarily need to have.

Someone to run a business which turns over a vast quantity of money every year is.

[TaxDodger]

Well a manager has just been sacked by a club who play in claret and blue..

[hawkeye]

Really quite surprised by the Poll, over 2/3rds want him gone. That would mean 4 managers in 5 months. If he had been fired after the Liverpool game I would have supported such a decision. I think that a hammering at Chelsea will seal his fate.

[KevinGage]

I do not think Jol was approached and am using that as an example of how things could have been done better post MON's resignation.  Can I prove it?  No I can't.

Odd then that Jol mentioned us by name and said "Villa will have to wait" when he was linked with the post.

The General also said something along the lines of 'all the obvious names were contacted' in his thread.

At that time, Jol had the prospect of CL football and being in the same group as AC Milan to face, as well as what he believed to be unfinished business with the league. So short of kidnapping him (or Moyes -who was also reportedly sounded out) I'm not sure what else they could have done?

[Toronto Villa]

I'm trying to figure out at what point did Martin Jol turn into Jose Mourinho.?The way some people have thrown his name about you'd think he'd won everything there is to win in the game, and that we were such fools not to appoint him 5 days before the start of the season. That the illustrious one would just walk away from CL Ajax into our arms. Did I miss the multiple championships and cups he's won?

Instead, after much thought we appointed a man who, funnily enough has won a number of trophies in his career, and must be doing his nut as much as all of us as to why the results have gone the way they have. I can only imagine he cannot wait to turf out some of the players who have completely sold out the club and bring in his own players that actually want to give something back.

Things aren't going well, but given that Houllier has never suffered a relegation in his career, he won't want to start at the age of 63. I'm still of the belief that we will get through this, and we will build through our academy and astute signings a better club, playing better football.

[WikiVilla]

Has he gone yet ?

[Concrete John]

I do not think Jol was approached and am using that as an example of how things could have been done better post MON's resignation.  Can I prove it?  No I can't.

In which case it doesn't really stand up as an argument, it's as much idle conjecture as the people on here moaning that Houllier called Lichaj a disgrace.

OK, but if we are going to say that any managerial alternatives are 'pure conjecture' then surely so is the presumption that Houllier was the best we could do?  If we don't know what they did or could do how do we know they COULDN'T have got someone better?  Which then falls down the argument of it being Martin's fault we got Houllier.

Yes, it was awkward to get someone when we needed to, but not impossible.  Martin leaving when he did was his fault, who the board then appointed, no matter what level of difficulty the process had, was the boards decision. 

[hawkeye]

the problem i have is that something beyond the timing of the MON departure has gone horribly wrong, there have been some abject performances there are problems at the back and virtually no threat up front. his selection against Spurs was odd and the changes he made through the game were bewidering, now we throw the towell in at citeh.

[villa for life]

Exactly my point Pauliewalnuts - we didn't need Houlier... we could have just waited with the money in its then current state (Kmac / cash) till somethign better came along.

[Concrete John]

I do not think Jol was approached and am using that as an example of how things could have been done better post MON's resignation.  Can I prove it?  No I can't.

Odd then that Jol mentioned us by name and said "Villa will have to wait" when he was linked with the post.

The General also said something along the lines of 'all the obvious names were contacted' in his thread.

At that time, Jol had the prospect of CL football and being in the same group as AC Milan to face, as well as what he believed to be unfinished business with the league. So short of kidnapping him (or Moyes -who was also reportedly sounded out) I'm not sure what else they could have done?

Genuine question here - can someone remind me of exactly what the events were when he was heavily linked with Fulham in the summer?  From memory it was that he was at least tempted, but they wouldn't pay the release fee, and he wouldn't walk out.  Was that have been before their CL qualification?

If that is right, then paying his release fee would have been a small price for us given his suitability and our need. 

Look, this isn't about Jol in particular, but I simply cannot accept the argument that Martin's timing is why Houllier is the manager.  They took their time and had resources to throw at it if necessary, so for all you can blamce him for, the appointment of his successor is not one of those things!