Ashley Young, Diver ?

[Chris Smith]

Drogba* can throw himself to the floor as often as he likes today and if I happen to see it I will cheer him loudly.

there is something distinctly unmanly about throwing yourself around like a big girl's blouse

That's been my argument all along, the Little Englander mentality that has decided that this form of cheating is worse than others. You've been arguing against it and now are agreeing with me.

You appear to be under the misapprehension that I'm condoning it when I'm not. I'm just suggesting that it just one of the many misdemeanours that go on in games and there's no real logic in it as they're all, if spotted, detrimental to the team.

*He's injured.

[ktvillan]

Sorry you've lost me and probably everyone else.  Explain how calling something unmanly is a Little Englander mentality? Explain how me giving several reasons why diving is a worse form of cheating means I'm agreeing with your assertion that it isnt?  Bizarre.

 

[ktvillan]

And I;ve explained the logic of it being worse than some other forms of cheating - its potential game changing effects - but you've chosen to ignore it and gone for the little englander diversion instead.

[Chris Smith]

Sorry you've lost me and probably everyone else.  Explain how calling something unmanly is a Little Englander mentality? Explain how me giving several reasons why diving is a worse form of cheating means I'm agreeing with your assertion that it isnt?  Bizarre.

The only thing that is bizarre is your inability to see an alternative point of view.

Because it's an attitude that only really exists in this country, in other parts of the world it's thought of as clever play if a forward manages to gain a free kick in this way. They will argue that if defenders are going to get away with kicking them why shouldn't they do something to redress the balance?

You haven't given 'several reasons', you've made a ridiculous comparison with claiming a corner.

By having a sliding scale where some forms of cheating are worse than others you are giving tacit approval to some of them.

I've ben watching football since the 70s and it has always been in the game, you'll never get rid of it.

[ktvillan]

I see your point of view perfectly but you keep ignoring the arguments to the contrary and going on about some inmaginery xenophobia.

How do you know that diving is only frowned upon in this country? You dont. And no-one mentioned blaming foreigners etc. so I've no idea what possible relevance it has to the debate.  But let's accept your assertion for a second, that's it's an English thing. So what?  Why should English people follow what people in other countries believe? Where I live they think it's perfectly okay to bribe government officials, judges etc. In the UK we don't.  We have a different attitude to certain things, it doesn't make us xenophobic, just different.

And by your logic, if judges consider murder a more serious crime and give stiffer sentences, does it mean they are are tacitly approving crimes like burglary or GBH?  Of course it doesn't.  Again your argument is flawed.

Why is the comparison to claiming a corner ridiculous?  Is it not a form of cheating?  And haven't you stressed repeatedly, that one form of cheating is no worse than another? Therefore it's a valid conparison to use. And wasnt it you that first made that comparison anyway? So if it's a ridiculous comparison, why did you bring it up in the first place?

And finally it was only a question of time before you rolled out the "it was just the same in the 70s" line, because you always do.  With one or two notable exceptions,(Lee, Gemmill) it simply isnt true.

[TimTheVillain]

I think he's labelled a diver by many refs and this is held against him.

He isn't getting all the decsions now for example.

[Chris Smith]

I see your point of view perfectly but you keep ignoring the arguments to the contrary and going on about some inmaginery xenophobia.

How do you know that diving is only frowned upon in this country? You dont. And no-one mentioned blaming foreigners etc. so I've no idea what possible relevance it has to the debate.  But let's accept your assertion for a second, that's it's an English thing. So what?  Why should English people follow what people in other countries believe? Where I live they think it's perfectly okay to bribe government officials, judges etc. In the UK we don't.  We have a different attitude to certain things, it doesn't make us xenophobic, just different.

And by your logic, if judges consider murder a more serious crime and give stiffer sentences, does it mean they are are tacitly approving crimes like burglary or GBH?  Of course it doesn't.  Again your argument is flawed.

Why is the comparison to claiming a corner ridiculous?  Is it not a form of cheating?  And haven't you stressed repeatedly, that one form of cheating is no worse than another? Therefore it's a valid conparison to use. And wasnt it you that first made that comparison anyway? So if it's a ridiculous comparison, why did you bring it up in the first place?

And finally it was only a question of time before you rolled out the "it was just the same in the 70s" line, because you always do.  With one or two notable exceptions,(Lee, Gemmill) it simply isnt true.

Francis, Marsh, Bowles, Clarke, Johnstone, Nicholas etc. It's perfectly valid to point out that it's something that has been around for a long time as supports my view that talk of trying to eradicate it as pie in the sky. Wall to wall TV coverage and dozens of different camera angles make it appear to be more prevalent but I don't belive that to be the case.

Where have I accused anyone of xenophobia, your do have an unfortunate habit of twisting thing? I've said it's an English trait to view this form of cheating as worse than any others and everything that you've posted supports that. In other parts of the world it's viewed differently and I know that to be the case because I've read up on it.

I used claiming for a corner when you know it isn't as another form of cheating but it was one of many that I've mentioned but you, for your own peculiar reasons, decided to single that one out. Players will seek out ways to gain an advantage, some types bring more of an advantage but they're all designed to con the ref so one cannot be inherently more
immoral than another.

That's all, I don't expect you to change your entrenched second-hand opinion, I'm just offering a different perspective.

[The Situation]

Isn't Drogba like 6'2 and 85 kilos? He could be playing in the NFL.

Atleast Drogba isn't playing today...

[Somniloquism]

Young needs to start taking lessons from Chamakh. He has dived for about 2 or 3 pens and several free kicks this season and got them all given.

[ktvillan]

Marsh possibly, occasionally, and Willie Johnstone,  but Nicholas, Clark and Bowles?  I don't recall any of them being known for diving.

The term "Little Englander" generally implies an anti foreign sentiment, otherwise known as xenophobia.  Here are a couple of definitions off the web:
a person who perceives most foreign influences on Britain's culture and institutions as damaging or insidious.
a term applied to English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic

and for Xenophobia = hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.

Perhaps you could explain in what sense you used it and how I've twisted it.

If as you claim, all cheating is equally as bad and immoral, then what exactly is your gripe with singling out claiming a corner unfairly for comparison?  Or are you saying it's not as bad as some others I could have chosen?  But hang on, that would be contradicting yourself wouldnt it?  The "peculiar reason" for choosing it was the very fact that it provides a reductio ad absurdum to your claim that all cheating is equally as bad. Have you ever seen anyone yellow carded for falsely claiming a corner? I havent, and there's a reason for it, because it isnt regarded as serious enough.  The very fact there is a hierarchical system of punishments from free kicks to  yellow cards and red cards indicates that your assertion that all forms of cheating are equally as bad is not shared by the authorities.  Nor by anyone else I would imagine. 

I'll ignore the petty insults at the end as I know it's just your way of doing things.

[The Situation]

So, did Ash dive when Terry smashed into him which resulted Terry the scumbag getting a yellow card? This is one of the many examples where Ash repeatedly gets badly fouled.

[Dave]

So, did Ash dive when Terry smashed into him which resulted Terry the scumbag getting a yellow card?

No. He gets fouled sometimes, but sometimes (like in the week) he falls over for no reason at all.

[ktvillan]

No that one wasnt a dive and Terry was rightly booked for it.  I dont think anyone is denying Ash gets fouled, so I don't really see what your point is.  There was another occasion today where he went down rather too easily from a very slight touch shoulder to shoulder when he was in possession in their half.  Result, ref waves play on, Chelsea regain possession and launch a counter attack.  There's no need for it.

[The Situation]

So, did Ash dive when Terry smashed into him which resulted Terry the scumbag getting a yellow card?

No. He gets fouled sometimes, but sometimes (like in the week) he falls over for no reason at all.

Players don't fall over for no reason? I thought the point of diving was to gain an advantage by getting a freekick or penalty?

Whenever Ash goes down he's touched, and seeing as he has a small body-frame, his balance will get knocked over more easily seeing as he's not exactly built like a 240 lbs linebacker in the NFL.

[Chris Smith]

Marsh possibly, occasionally, and Willie Johnstone,  but Nicholas, Clark and Bowles?  I don't recall any of them being known for diving.

The term "Little Englander" generally implies an anti foreign sentiment, otherwise known as xenophobia.  Here are a couple of definitions off the web:
a person who perceives most foreign influences on Britain's culture and institutions as damaging or insidious.
a term applied to English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic

and for Xenophobia = hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.

Perhaps you could explain in what sense you used it and how I've twisted it.

If as you claim, all cheating is equally as bad and immoral, then what exactly is your gripe with singling out claiming a corner unfairly for comparison?  Or are you saying it's not as bad as some others I could have chosen?  But hang on, that would be contradicting yourself wouldnt it?  The "peculiar reason" for choosing it was the very fact that it provides a reductio ad absurdum to your claim that all cheating is equally as bad. Have you ever seen anyone yellow carded for falsely claiming a corner? I havent, and there's a reason for it, because it isnt regarded as serious enough.  The very fact there is a hierarchical system of punishments from free kicks to  yellow cards and red cards indicates that your assertion that all forms of cheating are equally as bad is not shared by the authorities.  Nor by anyone else I would imagine. 

I'll ignore the petty insults at the end as I know it's just your way of doing things.

Strange way to ignore something by mentioning it. It would like me saying "I'll ignore the fact you're thick" to a thick person. Fact is it isn't an insult, your opinions are entrenched and they are second-hand in that it is the accepted view of diving in this country, you didn't just come up with it all by yourself did you. It's also another example of your own hypocrisy given that you called me hysterical a few posts ago.

This is specifically about an attitude to diving in football, how can it be xenophobic to suggest that other countries view it differently? As I've patiently tried to explain to you it's just an observation that in this country we see it as a worse offence than in some others, just as in some European leagues a high boot is viewed more seriously than it is over here. It's just a fact and I'm not even sure why you have decided to take issue with it.