Summer 2010 Transfer Thread: B*llsh*t, Rumours & Wishes

[pauliewalnuts]

It is, how about players who have succeeded without premier league experience. I'll just pick a list off the top of my head, Adebayor, Henry, Drogba, Torres, Palacios, Bergkamp, Hangeland, Figeruoa. There a many many more. If you choose to take a chance it's unlikely you will succeed.

So how many of those players were signed based on their performance at previous world cups?

The article is about scouting at the world cup.  ISM's comment is not about MON's transfer policy in general, even though it may appear so at times.

Some people put a slant on things in a way they would like them to read so as to support their view on things.

That may be the case, but isn't that exactly what you've just done, too?

No, I don't believe I have.

I have gone back to the full article on the BBC and read it in full. My comment is how I interpreted it.  If you think my interpretation is incorrect, I am open to listen to your reasoning.  Have you read the full article or are you just commenting on other posters' comments.

Who's being condescending now?

Yes, i have read the full article.

You said

ISM's comment is not about MON's transfer policy in general, even though it may appear so at times.

... and then went on to berate other people putting their own slant on it. I disagree with the statement above and suggested that that's what you're doing.  As you seem to suggest yourself by saying "though it may appear so at times".

[Dave]

The writer of the article might just have been relaying what ISM said and for the sake of repetition didn't duplicate.  

But Storey-Moore admitted Villa boss Martin O'Neill would only be interested in men with Premier League experience "Martin will only be interested in players with Premier League experience," he said.

Looks pretty weird, no?

No more weird than:

"If you go to the World Cup hoping to unearth the next Wayne Rooney you've already missed the bus," said Aston Villa chief scout Ian Storey-Moore

I stand by the statement than anything in quotation marks he said, anything that isn't is the journalist summarising things that have been hinted at.

Look at it this way, Lucas Barrios scores six goals for Paraguay on their run to the semi-final and says that the only club he wants to play for is Villa. Are we going to refuse point blank to sign him because he has never played in England? I'd hope not and I think not.

But crucially, are we going to sign him just because he has scored six goals in the World Cup? Again, I'd hope not.

Are we going to investigate a bit more and sign him if we think he would be able to transfer that form to the Premier League? I'd hope so and I'm fairly sure that's what we would do. If we didn't think he could then I'd fully agree with not signing him.

[old man villa fan]

It is, how about players who have succeeded without premier league experience. I'll just pick a list off the top of my head, Adebayor, Henry, Drogba, Torres, Palacios, Bergkamp, Hangeland, Figeruoa. There a many many more. If you choose to take a chance it's unlikely you will succeed.

So how many of those players were signed based on their performance at previous world cups?

The article is about scouting at the world cup.  ISM's comment is not about MON's transfer policy in general, even though it may appear so at times.

Some people put a slant on things in a way they would like them to read so as to support their view on things.

That may be the case, but isn't that exactly what you've just done, too?

No, I don't believe I have.

I have gone back to the full article on the BBC and read it in full. My comment is how I interpreted it.  If you think my interpretation is incorrect, I am open to listen to your reasoning.  Have you read the full article or are you just commenting on other posters' comments.

Who's being condescending now?

Yes, i have read the full article.

You said

ISM's comment is not about MON's transfer policy in general, even though it may appear so at times.

... and then went on to berate other people putting their own slant on it. I disagree with the statement above and suggested that that's what you're doing.  As you seem to suggest yourself by saying "though it may appear so at times".

The words you have highlighted is a question.  Berate is a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it.

My comment "though it may appear so at times" is linking two separate issues.  It is not my slant on the article.

Question - Do you think ISM's 'admission' in the article (some people are not sure whether it was a quote or not) about the transfer policy related to this world cup or MON's policy in general.

[pauliewalnuts]

I think that it may have related to the World Cup only, but it might not have.

I don't see, for example, why we would have a policy of buyingsolely  players with PL experience which only applies to players at the World Cup but not the market as a whole. That doesn't really make sense, does it?

But that's just my slant on it *wink*

[KevinGage]

There was a similar debate a few weeks back when we were linked with Scott Parker.

One paper had it that "Karren Brady warned off Aston Villa and any other potential clubs..." but her specific quotes (in that piece) didn't mention us by name.

Pfft! Lazy journalism, no direct quotes and all the rest of it. Until someone else picked up on an article elsewhere where she did mention us by name.

Litigation being what it is today, I don't think many journalists would take a direct quote and bend it backwards. They might get creative with 'alleged' and 'about to' and all the rest of it. But wrongly attributing a comment just isn't worth the risk.

So I'll stand by my statement. If ISM was supposed to have said something controversial, newsworthy or something that could be viewed as a departure from the norm then micro analysis of the article and questioning the lack of quotation marks might have some merit. But seeing as it pretty much just confirms a continuation of our buying policy I don't think that's the case.

[Dave]

But seeing as it pretty much just confirms a continuation of our buying policy I don't think that's the case.

But it doesn't. We clearly have considered players without Premier League experience. We've bought at least one player without Premier League experience every season since O'Neill's been in charge. It's quite obviously not our 'policy'.

Is our policy preferring players with that experience? Undoubtedly. Will it continue to be? Probably.

Would we (and I quote the article) "only be interested in men with Premier League experience" at the World Cup? Possibly, and as my earlier post indicates that's possibly not the catastrophe that it's being made out to be.

Is our overall plan for the future to "only be interested in men with Premier League experience"? Of course not.

[old man villa fan]

I think that it may have related to the World Cup only, but it might not have.

I don't see, for example, why we would have a policy of buyingsolely  players with PL experience which only applies to players at the World Cup but not the market as a whole. That doesn't really make sense, does it?

But that's just my slant on it *wink*

I think it is that you know what you are getting as you know how they have performed in the PL.  Whereas somebody who has been playing outside of the PL may have been building up to peak at the world cup and may not be able to play at this level week in, week out.

The world cup is only a few games and if you are going to buy somebody after, you will more than likely have been scouting them for some time prior to the world cup, if you have any sense.

[pauliewalnuts]

I think that it may have related to the World Cup only, but it might not have.

I don't see, for example, why we would have a policy of buyingsolely  players with PL experience which only applies to players at the World Cup but not the market as a whole. That doesn't really make sense, does it?

But that's just my slant on it *wink*

I think it is that you know what you are getting as you know how they have performed in the PL.  Whereas somebody who has been playing outside of the PL may have been building up to peak at the world cup and may not be able to play at this level week in, week out.

The world cup is only a few games and if you are going to buy somebody after, you will more than likely have been scouting them for some time prior to the world cup, if you have any sense.

That makes sense, but hat about scouting those players before the World Cup, in whichever leagues they are playing in, though?

Why would they have to have been playing in the PL in that time?

[KevinGage]

If we're debating players that we've 'considered' but ultimately didn't sign then it's a very vague argument.

It's pretty clear that the vast majority of the players we've signed have had PL experience in some way shape or form.

That seems to be the overriding consideration and partly explains (though doesn't excuse) purchases like Knight, Harewood, Heskey, Sidwell and so on. There weren't any players the world over better (and gettable) than that lot, really?

Petrov and Maloney came from Scotland. It's almost foreign, I grant you. But not quite.

Of the players we have signed from beyond the confines of the domestic market, Carew was offered in a straight swap by a manager who had a long established interest in our makeweight (Baros). And Guzan/ Salifou were signed for such modest amounts they could barely be viewed as a gamble. We've paid more for youth players who haven't even seen first team football yet.

How many league games have the latter two started in, for example? That gives you a pretty good indication as to their place in the wider scheme of things and MON's faith in them.

[old man villa fan]

I think that it may have related to the World Cup only, but it might not have.

I don't see, for example, why we would have a policy of buyingsolely  players with PL experience which only applies to players at the World Cup but not the market as a whole. That doesn't really make sense, does it?

But that's just my slant on it *wink*

I think it is that you know what you are getting as you know how they have performed in the PL.  Whereas somebody who has been playing outside of the PL may have been building up to peak at the world cup and may not be able to play at this level week in, week out.

The world cup is only a few games and if you are going to buy somebody after, you will more than likely have been scouting them for some time prior to the world cup, if you have any sense.

That makes sense, but hat about scouting those players before the World Cup, in whichever leagues they are playing in, though?

Why would they have to have been playing in the PL in that time?

It is always a gamble bringing in somebody new to the PL.  The article is saying that you are not going to find the next Wayne Rooney based on just what you see at the world cup, you will know of the player before hand.

[eamonn]

Can't we just swap Storey-Moore for whoever Wigan have as their scout? Mind you I can't imagine O'Neill would have listened too much to recommendations on Valencia and Palacios and Rodallega and Figueroa and whoever else they've unearthed for very little and have sold or will eventually sell for a fortune.

[tommy_boy]

MON has brought in the club 27 first squad players :
(Agathe, Petrov, Sutton, Bardsley, Carew, Ashley Young, Maloney, Routledge, Salifou, Davies, Knight, Carson, Harewood, Reo Coker, Sidwell, Guzan , Shorey, Luke Young, Cuellar, Milner, Heskey, Warnock, Downing, Dunne, Delph, Collins, Beye)

19 had PL experience
4 other had SPL experience
Delph came from League One
Guzan from MLS
Salifou and Carew came from a foreign league



First of all, in my opinion MON is one of the best managers at the moment.
And he has done a great job at Villa Park.
But I agree that he could try to find talent outside UK.
OK, he looks for players that he knows what to expect. That are tested in Premier League, or maybe has already worked with(Petrov, Heskey, Maloney etc)and maybe he followed that safe but expensive path as he was building a team.

But I expect him to risk more in foreign talent.
Ofcourse he would like quality players like Sneijder and Van der Vaart, but are they worth the money, or more important, would they come to play for Villa?...I doubt that
I am talking about players that come from minor leagues. From Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium..I would like to see us take a chance on that kind of players.

[VillaZogmariner]

Didn't he only ever sign 2/3 players with Celtic who had no British Football experience?

[Matt Collins]

I can't believe we're having this debate again. As Tommy Boy's post indicates, MON has bought 27 players. Of those that we paid more than £1m for, not a single one was not bought from these shores. Carew was indeed a part exchange probably valued at c £4m, but even counting him I suspect you'd struggle to find another PL manager whose purchases are so heavily biased towards the UK transfer market,

[Concrete John]

As Paulie says though, it's not just the ISM article that bears this out.

It's our buying policy pretty much since 2006 that provides the most evidence.

The writer of the article might just have been relaying what ISM said and for the sake of repetition didn't duplicate.  

But Storey-Moore admitted Villa boss Martin O'Neill would only be interested in men with Premier League experience "Martin will only be interested in players with Premier League experience," he said.

Looks pretty weird, no?

I'd say the lack of specific quote marks on that particular point might be more open to question if it was alleging that ISM announced something quite outlandish, a break with recent policy for example.  But seeing as it is effectively telling us what we already know, it would be very hard to argue that the point has been misconstrued.

So, in that case why not say something like:-

But Storey-Moore went on to admit "Martin will only be interested in players with Premier League experience," he said.

I'm not saying he did or didn't say it, and we all know Martin DOES prefer players with PL experience, but I'm genuinely curious as to why is this the only bit NOT written as a direct quote?