Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on December 01, 2024, 03:32:23 PM
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Awful all over the place.
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Plenty of work to do. Utter shite
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Appalling performance. Very much looks like he's lost the dressing room
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I gave up at 2-0. Sounds like the players did too. Something's got to change soon because we're slipping badly right now.
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2024 from a results perspective
P 31
W 12
D 9
L 10
G 52
A 56
PTS 45
That would be good enough for 9th place at best. Just 5 clean sheets. 17 games we've conceded 2 or more. Statistically it's a huge drop off and we're getting worse. The last 16 games would see us having lost more games than we've won and a -9 goal difference.
Big changes needed. No more sweeping it under the carpet.
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All those teams we'd started to beat regularly like Spurs and Chelsea but it feels like normal business resumed now. What an underwhelming first few months. The club is only interested in hospitality and fleecing the fans while on the pitch we look completely devoid of ideas and energy again. I've missed this misery.
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For all the criticism on the field substituting Barkley for Kamara was a dreadful decision and any chance of winning the game went west.
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Page 2 on ceefax.
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Really glad I can't get tickets to away games , what a total waste of time and money when the players don't even bother
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For all the criticism on the field substituting Barkley for Kamara was a dreadful decision and any chance of winning the game went west.
Probably because he was on a booking and we had no chance of winning the game anyway.
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Oh well. It was good while it lasted.
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Kamara is still regaining match fitness. No issue with his subbing.
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Project feels ready for a major reset
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We are continuing to make the same mistakes we have made for a long while now. We’ve been defensively rubbish ever since Doug and Kamara stopped being the combo in midfield. But up until recently we were capable of scoring lots of goals - that’s gone now. We’re a complete mess.
Unai, you’ve been fantastic but we’re now looking like a badly coached team. Sort it out.
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Poor all over the pitch today, we need a win to get some confidence back.
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We’re not making a top 4 spot and we’re not making a Conference spot either. I’ve never seen as much effort trying to gift the opposition goals. Dreadful. Only Digne looked up for it.
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0 for every one , 6 for kamara
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Back to basics time. Mings and Konsa centre backs and if fit, Onana and Kamara in front of them with Digne and Cash as full backs. It's great being manager when it's all rosy, time to earn the cash now Uni.
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Project feels ready for a major reset
Agreed.
Mings back to organise, sack the wingers. Ramsey, Onana, Maatsen back in. Give Duran a run up front. Knock the walking football on the head, we’re in a rut with it. Buendia back if only for his energy.
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Questions about Emery s ability to change things if it is not working or we are out of form or something
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Pure, unadulterated wank from start to finish.
Things have to improve from this point. Emery just needs to focus on making us hard to play against again, because right now we're soft as shite.
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Well done lads showing some real heart passion and fight. Oh sorry i was watching the team from 2023. This team appears weak frail and defeated. They looked defeated before the first whistle went.
The motm was the away fans who were brilliant and deserved better than this absolute pile of shite. The players should be embarrassed of how they have performed lately. This isnt a villa team we recognise. Just zero heart or passion.
So our results against liverpool chelsea spurs and arsenal W 0 L 4 goals scored 1 conceded 11
Anyone that thinks this acceptable i cant defend that. Its utterly pathetic.
End 2024 now ffs a horrible results season in the league
Alot of these players nedd to be moved on between january and February as they are not good enough
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Appalling performance. Very much looks like he's lost the dressing room
It’s normally along a corridor although can be difficult for away games, I agree.
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They’re right it’s the hope that kills you.
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Poor all over the pitch today, we need a win to get some confidence back.
we would if ollie scored the easy chances or give it for rogers for a tap in .
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Shockingly shit.
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A poor performance against a decent side. Another European hangover. Defensively naive and too many walking around the pitch and standing off. We have become easy to play against as opponents know we will give them the ball if they press us. Lack of pace and creativity all around the side. Lack of leadership too. We really do look very very ordinary.
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We’re not making a top 4 spot and we’re not making a Conference spot either. I’ve never seen as much effort trying to gift the opposition goals. Dreadful. Only Digne looked up for it.
Cant blame Watkins or Konsa either.
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We’re not making a top 4 spot and we’re not making a Conference spot either. I’ve never seen as much effort trying to gift the opposition goals. Dreadful. Only Digne looked up for it.
Cant blame Watkins or Konsa either.
Really?
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Chelsea scored from their half chances, we didn't.
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Project feels ready for a major reset
Agreed.
Mings back to organise, sack the wingers. Ramsey, Onana, Maatsen back in. Give Duran a run up front. Knock the walking football on the head, we’re in a rut with it.
Agree, this conserving energy football he got away with in Europe last year isn’t working.
This with a poor transfer window and continually picking players out of form is doing for us.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
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Up until today we’ve looked like a good team in bad form. Today we looked like a bad team.
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We’re not making a top 4 spot and we’re not making a Conference spot either. I’ve never seen as much effort trying to gift the opposition goals. Dreadful. Only Digne looked up for it.
Cant blame Watkins or Konsa either.
Really?
Yes you can blame them. Ollie is a trier but misses too many chances. Konsa needs an organiser next to him.
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Probably our worst performance of season. At least against Spurs we won the first half and against Liverpool we were ok overall and could easily have come away with a draw. This was very, very tired performance.
Weirdly though, I maintained a feeling that we could get something right up until the third goal.
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Very very very very very bad!
Emery has to change the shape. He did against Juve and it was better. Back to this today, horrible. The system relies on players being in form and confident - and if they're not it doesn't just fall apart, but it actually makes the players less and less confident as ti exposes them to dangerous situations in which they keep making errors. He must know it has to change.
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A long, long way to go but we are now closer to the bottom of the table than the top. The last couple of years have been great but, being Villa fans, we just know it never seems to last. We are just not allowed to have nice things before they are snatched away again.
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We’re not making a top 4 spot and we’re not making a Conference spot either. I’ve never seen as much effort trying to gift the opposition goals. Dreadful. Only Digne looked up for it.
Cant blame Watkins or Konsa either.
Really?
Watkins?
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We’re not making a top 4 spot and we’re not making a Conference spot either. I’ve never seen as much effort trying to gift the opposition goals. Dreadful. Only Digne looked up for it.
Cant blame Watkins or Konsa either.
I can. Konsa, stop fucking about with it at the back when under pressure, Watkins, stop fucking about with it up front when there’s an easy ball for a tap in.
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We were largely awful with the odd bright (but mostly wasted) moment. We have had two years of bliss under this manager and it makes a slump like this even more painful. We aren't used to it.
The problems are tricky to solve because so many players are out of form and that number seems to grow week on week.
Despite a manager working wonders to achieve something virtually unprecedented in his first two years, we were completely stifled in the summer and could not invest to improve our first XI. While Chelsea were signing Pedro Neto, we sold Diaby and bought in a £10 million. In fact the only players we have added to our forward line in the last 12 months both came from the Championship and cost one fifth of Chelsea's sixth choice winger.
Sadly, we could not improve from a position of strength and other sides were never going to underperform forever.
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Did I hear the commentary say that Chelsea made 10 changes from their Europe match? Unfortunately we have too many players who know they are playing every match as we do not have the quality of players who can come in and keep the level of performance up. We need to show more enthusiasm and a definite attack in our play not keeping playing it about around the penalty area.
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Has any team got relegated and won the champions league in the same season
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Project feels ready for a major reset
Agreed.
Mings back to organise, sack the wingers. Ramsey, Onana, Maatsen back in. Give Duran a run up front. Knock the walking football on the head, we’re in a rut with it. Buendia back if only for his energy.
Exactly right. What is the use of depth if we never use it?
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Project feels ready for a major reset
Agreed.
Mings back to organise, sack the wingers. Ramsey, Onana, Maatsen back in. Give Duran a run up front. Knock the walking football on the head, we’re in a rut with it. Buendia back if only for his energy.
The walking football, that made me chuckle. All true.
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There’s so much wrong
Everyone picks on their default/scapegoat player of choice but it’s a whole team malaise with very few exceptions
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
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It is a very alarming downturn. Even a few games into this season I was thinking that the team is one of the best I have seen. However, so many players are out of form and it can't all be attributable to Champions League.
The summer signings have not improved us, but I wasn't expecting us to fall away so meekly.
Since that late equaliser for Bournemouth, our form has been mediocre at best and downright poor at times. We currently resemble a pre-Emery team.
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The exemplar of our game was what preceded the first goal: Philogene's poor first touch and subsequent unsuccessful stretch to retrieve the ball.
Poor control, poor defence and a lack of intelligence.
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Yes it feels like we are going through the motions far too much
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
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Another dismal performance, we were fortunate to get away with only a 3 nil. On present form we're looking like finishing in the bottom half, which was unthinkable
at the beginning of the season.
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This is almost as bad as pre covid. At least then we can say we didnt spend alot of money. But this form is deeply worrying.
How can you defend like that at this level? It makes no sense. What do we do in training?
Furthermore all watkins misses are costing us. Arsenal spurs and now today. We seriously need to rock the boat and get someone to compete with him because he is playing even when he is shit. Same with other players like mcginn, cash pau to name a few
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I didn’t think Chelsea played in top gear today either which makes the loss even worse.
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Other observations:
- McGinn looks like he's dragging a tractor-tyre behind him these days. When did he lose his pace?
- Tielemans' passing has deteriorated. Was it Tanswell who suggested that his attempted through-balls means we're losing more possession than last season because they're easier to cut out?
- We're missing Ramsey, Onana and (until recently) Kamara far more than we thought we would. We have too get these three into the starting 11.
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I didn’t think Chelsea played in top gear today either which makes the loss even worse.
easiest game they will have all season.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive Rogers against spurs but it didn't change anything.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
He scored against spurs but it didn't change anything.
Mate, if you love him that much fine, but his shot conversion rate for any player with more than 1 goal is the worst in the PL.
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We are far too narrow so easy to play against, Blame Watkins for missing the one chance he had but he gets no service. We are a toothless tiger at the moment, Rogers should be rested and this is where I take issue with Emery, he gives players out of form far too much time. It only takes one player to become a passenger to affect the rest of the team. Our dire need is for two quality wingers.
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Yet another £100+ spent to watch them jog around without barely breaking sweat, appalling today.
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It’s a good job the international break came when it did.
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We are far too narrow so easy to play against, Blame Watkins for missing the one chance he had but he gets no service. We are a toothless tiger at the moment, Rogers should be rested and this is where I take issue with Emery, he gives players out of form far too much time. It only takes one player to become a passenger to affect the rest of the team. Our dire need is for two quality wingers.
But if you dropped all the players out of form you’d be giving people out of the crowd a game
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What has happened to the energy and pressing? We look slow, laboured and very easy to play through.It feels like the team are no longer listening to the manager.
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I didn’t think Chelsea played in top gear today either which makes the loss even worse.
easiest game they will have all season.
When the opposition take the lead in the first few minutes, they rarely need to play in top gear. Thats a recurring feature of recent games.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
He scored against spurs but it didn't change anything.
Mate, if you love him that much fine, but his shot conversion rate for any player with more than 1 goal is the worst in the PL.
Who scored against Spurs?
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
He scored against spurs but it didn't change anything.
Mate, if you love him that much fine, but his shot conversion rate for any player with more than 1 goal is the worst in the PL.
Who scored against Spurs?
Rogers*
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Didn't see the game today thankfully but the team selection by Emery was asking for trouble. Rogers has been in need of being rested for weeks, was dreadful v Juve but started. Jaden isn't PL standard and Tielemans has been struggling at 6 for weeks. Thought it was the ideal game to bring Mings in to deal with Jackson.
On a wider issue, the team has been struggling for some time. We limped into the top 4 really, helped by a spectacular Spurs collapse. The club was severely limited what they could do in the summer but Jaden, Onana, Barkley, Maatsen have had limited impact while Luiz in particular has been a massive loss. The expected lift from the return from injury of Buendia, Mings, Ramsey and Kamara hasn't transpired yet either.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
He scored against spurs but it didn't change anything.
Mate, if you love him that much fine, but his shot conversion rate for any player with more than 1 goal is the worst in the PL.
Who scored against Spurs?
It was Rogers. My mistake. The point remains it didn't change anything.
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Kamara is still regaining match fitness. No issue with his subbing.
I thought his positioning was far more loose today, not his normal sitting in front of the defence. It seems he and Youri swapped positions today.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
He scored against spurs but it didn't change anything.
Mate, if you love him that much fine, but his shot conversion rate for any player with more than 1 goal is the worst in the PL.
Who scored against Spurs?
It was Rogers. My mistake. The point remains it didn't change anything.
Scoring first usually gives you a better chance of winning , the stats bare this out.
Watkins even when not being impersonated by Rogers has missed too many this season.
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Just over one third of the season gone and we have rarely shown anything like the best of last season's form yet as it stands we are ninth in the Champions league and within touching distance of the knock-out stages and four points off a Champions League place in the Premier division. At present it feels as if the glass is more than half empty.
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We need another 19 points to get to safety I reckon.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
He scored against spurs but it didn't change anything.
Mate, if you love him that much fine, but his shot conversion rate for any player with more than 1 goal is the worst in the PL.
Who scored against Spurs?
Rogers*
That’s what I thought.
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
I doubt it would have been a different game.
Goals change games and we really could have done with a boost. Think how that miss affects the rest of the team,Watkins misses have been very expensive this season.
He scored against spurs but it didn't change anything.
Mate, if you love him that much fine, but his shot conversion rate for any player with more than 1 goal is the worst in the PL.
Who scored against Spurs?
Watkins missed a sitter as well at 1-0 whoch cost us deeply
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Kamara aside, everyone was off it today. Martínez. Watkins. All of them. We need a break / a player taking the rest of the winter by the scruff of the neck, a new signing coming in and making a massive difference - or this season is going to be a massive disappointment. In the meantime, we need to stop making so many absurd mistakes (Martínez passing the ball to Jackson, Philogene losing a 50/50 on the edge of our box that led to the first goal, Watkins missing an easy 1 on 1, Cash kicking the ball out of play for a corner 3 times , that fucking indirect free kick in our box) and get back to basics. Chelsea are not a great team. But we made them look like the old Chelsea by acting like the old Aston Villa - timid, in awe, nice and easy to play against.
This needs to stop now. I don’t expect top 4 every year. There are too many teams who are capable. But I expect us to be competitive and aggressive which we weren’t today.
Sort it out!
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Feels like being in the ECL and all the previous hype from the media and the big contracts being handed out like confetti have gone to the players heads . The basics are hard work, determination, organisation and effort and they are all in short supply . Off the pitch is a well documented fiscal disaster which has left a very sour taste too .
Onto Brentford hopefully they will roll over for us . Lots and lots of seats available
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I didn’t think Chelsea played in top gear today either which makes the loss even worse.
agree , we was just absolute dire , last seasons Villa gets a result.
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I didn’t think Chelsea played in top gear today either which makes the loss even worse.
agree , we was just absolute dire , last seasons Villa gets a result.
Chelsea didn't play particularly well and they didn't need to .
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I'm off to find some calming ..whale music on YouTube...
Wednesday & Saturday are massive now!
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"Of course we are disappointed with the result. We played 90 minutes today more or less trying to play with personality with the ball and trying to avoid transitions and trying to stop their high press. We didn’t get it, but Chelsea today showed that this year is different.
"They are feeling stronger. They have power and capacity, it is higher. We have to try to keep balance and we had our chances to score. Maybe this could have changed something and they deserved to win.
"They showed their power for this year. I know this year is going to be more difficult because some teams are feeling stronger like Chelsea today. We are going to recover our confidence, everything we are doing. As well understand that this year is more difficult.
"We are in our way building the team and we build last year and we got last year so fast some objectives we had when we arrived here. We are enjoying it, playing as well in Europe.
"In the league and through it, we know it is the most important competition for the season and we have to try to come back some results again because we need points to be thinking the top eight or if we want to get the top. We have to come back with good results."
Are your players lacking confidence?
"Not completely. The first thing is Chelsea, the opponent. We lost against Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea, those three teams away. Last year we got a good result at Tottenham and Chelsea. This year has been different because we are not a surprise like last year.
"They (Chelsea) don’t have doubt like last year and we were being consistent last year with the same idea and style with the same players. This year a lot of teams are trying to face us thinking we are an opponent to be in the top seven.
"Chelsea deserved to win but we have to keep calm. We lost here one opportunity because it would be three points and now we are six points. We are thinking this match on Wednesday and trying to cut this spell of bad results."
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What a load of meaningless rubbish.
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I dont want to hear this chelsea team are stronger than last season, no excuse at all , I just want to see us not playing like shite . On that performance today most teams in the Prem would have beat us including soton , I actually dont think Chelsea was a 9 or 10 performance , they was a 7.5 and that was enough.
Passion and fight and players looking bothered I wanted to see.
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I dont want to hear this chelsea team are stronger than last season, no excuse at all , I just want to see us not playing like shite . On that performance today most teams in the Prem would have beat us including soton , I actually dont think Chelsea was a 9 or 10 performance , they was a 7.5 and that was enough.
Passion and fight and players looking bothered I wanted to see.
I agree. Chelsea look stronger so does that mean we have to accept it be alot shitter? Cant even compete to 50% of their level. Its a poor excuse.
That was one of the easiest home games chelsea have had all season
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I dont want to hear this chelsea team are stronger than last season, no excuse at all , I just want to see us not playing like shite . On that performance today most teams in the Prem would have beat us including soton , I actually dont think Chelsea was a 9 or 10 performance , they was a 7.5 and that was enough.
Passion and fight and players looking bothered I wanted to see.
We look beaten before we even kick off at the moment. And Brentford isn't going to be easy.
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What a load of meaningless rubbish.
As ever during bad runs, managers tend to trot out protective platitudes and fans get angry about them. I doubt anything he could say would be enough for you at the mo Risso!
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What a load of meaningless rubbish.
Sorry, its not meaningless rubbish. He’s basically saying we were a surprise package to the big lads and now were not. Be pissed off with how shit we played, be pissed off with the manager, tactics etc, but lets not insinuate he’s bullshitting or blagging, when he’s never done that. The bloke deserves more respect than that.
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Why a fiscal disaster ?
I thought we had worked it out and were now in a reasonabl position
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Why a fiscal disaster ?
I thought we had worked it out and were now in a reasonabl position
i meant ticket pricing and booting loyal fans out for padded seats etc
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Why a fiscal disaster ?
I thought we had worked it out and were now in a reasonabl position
We obviously got through PSR by selling Luiz before 30 June, we then created availability with the business we did in the summer. It’s the summer activity that has messed up the squad. No idea if we have any availability in January but probably need to sell again.
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What a load of meaningless rubbish.
Sorry, its not meaningless rubbish. He’s basically saying we were a surprise package to the big lads and now were not. Be pissed off with how shit we played, be pissed off with the manager, tactics etc, but lets not insinuate he’s bullshitting or blagging, when he’s never done that. The bloke deserves more respect than that.
We all love unai but to say we are losing games because we are no longer a suprise package is just a bad excuse.
There is no excuse to defend this abysmally. This defending is almost as bad as the year we went down. Its been some of the worst ive seen in years.
He needs to highlight defensively we have not bee good enough and we need vast improvement or there will be changes come the summer
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What a load of meaningless rubbish.
Sorry, its not meaningless rubbish. He’s basically saying we were a surprise package to the big lads and now were not. Be pissed off with how shit we played, be pissed off with the manager, tactics etc, but lets not insinuate he’s bullshitting or blagging, when he’s never done that. The bloke deserves more respect than that.
We all love unai but to say we are losing games because we are no longer a suprise package is just a bad excuse.
There is no excuse to defend this abysmally. This defending is almost as bad as the year we went down. Its been some of the worst ive seen in years.
He needs to highlight defensively we have not bee good enough and we need vast improvement or there will be changes come the summer
Re your last paragraph, you want him to say this in a post match interview? You want him to look players in the eye and say this stuff?
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I can see a major summer clear out here. Keep the manager change the players on this one.
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Starting with Torres.
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Starting with Torres.
I’d keep him. He’s excellent at what he does.
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Along with some of the coaching staff
Who is defensive coach ?
please tell the players, dont pick up the ball and give it to GK
Dont tap the ball back to GK 1 yard away in penalty box
Dont keep passing the ball in front of GK as opposition are pressing.
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We've still only lost to Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham in the league. It's hardly a disaster. The performances are patchy at best, poor at worst. Let's not get too entitled and throw the baby out with the bath water here. The time to worry will be if we are not performing against mid table teams. It's a simple fact, Chelsea are much better than in 2023. Their form in the whole of 2024 is considerably better than ours 60 pts picked up to our 45prs. This isn't a surprise result. Realism shows they are now a better team than us. Maybe our purple patch was 2023 and we are not their anymore. Maybe as some have suggested the team needs breaking up and changing? Maybe we aren't the surprise team and have been found out (lack of pace, high line etc etc)
I have seen what Emery has done since he arrived, it has been miraculous. It doesn't excuse a bad run but you cannot throw the lazy accusation of 'he doesn't know what he's doing'. He does, he's proven it, everywhere. We are just in poor form, losing to teams who are better than us, no lazy accusations of '' he's lost the dressing room''. The teams we are currently losing to are just better than us.
It's pretty obvious we could do with getting back to basics and making the team more difficult to play against and through. How we do it I don't know, I'm not a manager. Emery is and a top one and if anyone will bring us through this malaise it will be him. Let's not fuck things up for ourselves here. A couple of years ago we were getting hammered by Fulham.
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We've still only lost to Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham in the league. It's hardly a disaster. The performances are patchy at best, poor at worst. Let's not get too entitled and throw the baby out with the bath water here. The time to worry will be if we are not performing against mid table teams. It's a simple fact, Chelsea are much better than in 2023. Their form in the whole of 2024 is considerably better than ours 60 pts picked up to our 45prs. This isn't a surprise result. Realism shows they are now a better team than us. Maybe our purple patch was 2023 and we are not their anymore. Maybe as some have suggested the team needs breaking up and changing? Maybe we aren't the surprise team and have been found out (lack of pace, high line etc etc)
I have seen what Emery has done since he arrived, it has been miraculous. It doesn't excuse a bad run but you cannot throw the lazy accusation of 'he doesn't know what he's doing'. He does, he's proven it, everywhere. We are just in poor form, losing to teams who are better than us, no lazy accusations of '' he's lost the dressing room''. The teams we are currently losing to are just better than us.
It's pretty obvious we could do with getting back to basics and making the team more difficult to play against and through. How we do it I don't know, I'm not a manager. Emery is and a top one and if anyone will bring us through this malaise it will be him. Let's not fuck things up for ourselves here. A couple of years ago we were getting hammered by Fulham.
The problem is we beat 3 of those 4 teams last season in first half. We havent really competed with any of them or given them a game.
Against those 4 sides this year
We have lost 4 scored 1 and conceded 11. I would say those results alone are a disaster.
I agree with your last paragraph though very well written
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We've still only lost to Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham in the league. It's hardly a disaster. The performances are patchy at best, poor at worst. Let's not get too entitled and throw the baby out with the bath water here. The time to worry will be if we are not performing against mid table teams. It's a simple fact, Chelsea are much better than in 2023. Their form in the whole of 2024 is considerably better than ours 60 pts picked up to our 45prs. This isn't a surprise result. Realism shows they are now a better team than us. Maybe our purple patch was 2023 and we are not their anymore. Maybe as some have suggested the team needs breaking up and changing? Maybe we aren't the surprise team and have been found out (lack of pace, high line etc etc)
I have seen what Emery has done since he arrived, it has been miraculous. It doesn't excuse a bad run but you cannot throw the lazy accusation of 'he doesn't know what he's doing'. He does, he's proven it, everywhere. We are just in poor form, losing to teams who are better than us, no lazy accusations of '' he's lost the dressing room''. The teams we are currently losing to are just better than us.
It's pretty obvious we could do with getting back to basics and making the team more difficult to play against and through. How we do it I don't know, I'm not a manager. Emery is and a top one and if anyone will bring us through this malaise it will be him. Let's not fuck things up for ourselves here. A couple of years ago we were getting hammered by Fulham.
Totally agree. Emery will sort it and we’ll evolve again. Just tough at the minute. He’s been a winner almost every single club he’s been at. He isn’t the problem here and has broken ceilings at this club in a tiny amount of time that others have failed to do.
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Starting with Torres.
I’d keep him. He’s excellent at what he does.
Unfortunately, we need him to be excellent at defending and he's not, he's dreadful.
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We have dropped off this season, the squad isn’t strong enough to cope with injuries and playing twice a week vs quality opposition. It’s really showing. How can we sort this with PSR, Newcastle mark II from last season.
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This isn't 2023 any more. In 2024, you could argue that the only stand out league win we've had was Arsenal away, the others were games we were expected to win against mid to lower table sides. Maybe we've got a bit drunk on the success of '23 and the x amount of home wins on the trot. It was an amazing time but probably with the squad and players we had/have a flash in the pan and unrepeatable. We had no chance to improve the first team in the summer and have had to fight FFP fires. We aren't losing and struggling against lower teams, we just aren't replicating our amazing form against the top teams anymore.
It was lovely having a taste of it, if only for 12 months, but we aren't that good. The best chance we have of sustaining ourselves as a good team is to have a good manager and we do. Anyone who thinks we don't or he's lost his way, well I can't help you there.
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Starting with Torres.
I’d keep him. He’s excellent at what he does.
Unfortunately, we need him to be excellent at defending and he's not, he's dreadful.
He’s not dreadful. There’s no way we’d have finished fourth last season if he was. He can be got at but more often than not since he’s been here he’s been clever in preventing getting into foot races, etc. In a side regularly challenging for champions league football when most of the opposition sit deep, Torres is essential.
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Big fan of Torres, and he's not as bad as his worst run of form, and I would like to see how he does with an actual midfield in front of him.
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It was terrible. I honestly can't remember the last time we played as badly as that. There's normally one player who escapes criticism. I can't think of one. That's how poor it was.
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It was terrible. I honestly can't remember the last time we played as badly as that. There's normally one player who escapes criticism. I can't think of one. That's how poor it was.
Olsen wasn't a hologram.
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That was truly awful. Philogene and Rogers put in two of the most gutless performances we’ve had to endure since the relegation season and the rest of them were just rubbish. Watkins, miss aside, did ok in build up play and Emi, brain fart aside, played alright. Nobody else has anything above a 4 rating.
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Starting with Torres.
I’d keep him. He’s excellent at what he does.
agree , just cant defend , so maybe look at a Mings, Torres and Konsa back 3 , bring someone in who knows how to defend. Even Konsa has gone a little off .
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Prior to Sheff Utd last Christmas we had won 15 home games on the bounce. Since that day we've only won 5 of the next 15 in the league at home.
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Starting with Torres.
I’d keep him. He’s excellent at what he does.
agree , just cant defend , so maybe look at a Mings, Torres and Konsa back 3 , bring someone in who knows how to defend. Even Konsa has gone a little off .
I think that was the original plan. Then Mings got injured, Digne played really well and we spunked nearly £40m we don’t have on a reserve left back.
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Starting with Torres.
spot on, needs to go the same way as Moreno .
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Big fan of Torres, and he's not as bad as his worst run of form, and I would like to see how he does with an actual midfield in front of him.
His good form coincided with having an in form Kamara in front of him. A decent defender shouldn't rely on another player doing all the dirty work for him. Look at the first and third goals today, absolute woeful attempts by Torres to mark/close the attacking player down. Just the sign of a really poor defensive player. Mings might have had the odd brain fart in him, but overall you knew he was usually going to make it as difficult as possible for the opposition players. Torres never gives opposition strikers a difficult game at all, he really is, to quote that sage Sid the Sexist, as soft as a shite in a shite factory.
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It was terrible. I honestly can't remember the last time we played as badly as that. There's normally one player who escapes criticism. I can't think of one. That's how poor it was.
Fulham A (0-3)
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It's simple, we need to roll wor sleeves up.
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I think we need to roll wor sleeves up, and we'll be there or thereabouts, the players need to look the manager in the eye and be the best versions of themselves, and we need to be more demanding, always seeking to increase our levels. With our supporters.
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It's simple, we need to roll wor sleeves up.
are the tulips coming up yet
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That was truly awful. Philogene and Rogers put in two of the most gutless performances we’ve had to endure since the relegation season and the rest of them were just rubbish. Watkins, miss aside, did ok in build up play and Emi, brain fart aside, played alright. Nobody else has anything above a 4 rating.
Rogers is a funny one as he’s an absolute unit so should bully people. At the moment he’s neither helping out defensively or getting high enough up the pitch to link with Watkins. So he’s not doing anything.
I think we need Tielemans as the spare CM with Kamara and Onana behind. We need to be tough to beat for a bit. Stop the rot.
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First time I think I've ever seen 2 players booked for diving in the same game. Any advances on 2 players? About the most remarkable thing I can recall. There was a steam engine in Solihull Station that we've just passed, but I missed it. I can only faintly taste Jaegar and other concoctions from last night. So concludes a forgettable day. Well almost, as Moor Street is still aways from home.
We deserved to lose. That's what happens when you're poor in both boxes. Call me mad, but I'd actually prefer at this point to improve in the other box, the one Watkins missed 3 opportunities in. Yes, it's not either or but I clap my hands when we make a good block, I wave them around when we score.
Chelsea are a better side than they were. Just tighter in what they do, which is what its all about really. Marginal gains and fine margins. Cracking third, suboptimal defending for the other 2 goals and we did our best to gift with seasonal generosity.
The system requires precision to work. Full backs slightly deeper to account for weakness in transition with only Kamara as the pivot and yet this paradoxically creates the imbalance when we attack. The full back is meant to be high and overload, yet if they do they imbalance and if they don't...they imbalance.
When you're consistently attempting to thread the ball through the eye of a needle to set your centre forward away, you inevitably turn the ball over. We are hoisted by our own petard and the midfield isn't equipped to deal with the transition and we're back to the full backs and...you get the point.
A conundrum for Emery to solve and I assume the £80m of players in Maatsen and Onana are part of that solution. As is Ramsey, for Emery loves a strong runner with the ball throughout his managerial career. One day we'll see them.
Maatsen picks two lines; the high wide for a 5th attacker and curiously that inner central run. I think its time for him now.
Plenty of players out of form, injuries at the wrong time, an away fixture run of Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea. Not excuses, just circumstances, it's all it really ever is.
And now we have fresh ones; Brentford, Southampton and Das MK Dons- let's have a good week. It's not about wholesale change, it's about fine tuning. I can think of no better man for the job than Emery to find that accuracy.
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First time I think I've ever seen 2 players booked for diving in the same game. Any advances on 2 players? About the most remarkable thing I can recall. There was a steam engine in Solihull Station that we've just passed, but I missed it. I can only faintly taste Jaegar and other concoctions from last night. So concludes a forgettable day. Well almost, as Moor Street is still aways from home.
We deserved to lose. That's what happens when you're poor in both boxes. Call me mad, but I'd actually prefer at this point to improve in the other box, the one Watkins missed 3 opportunities in. Yes, it's not either or but I clap my hands when we make a good block, I wave them around when we score.
Chelsea are a better side than they were. Just tighter in what they do, which is what its all about really. Marginal gains and fine margins. Cracking third, suboptimal defending for the other 2 goals and we did our best to gift with seasonal generosity.
The system requires precision to work. Full backs slightly deeper to account for weakness in transition with only Kamara as the pivot and yet this paradoxically creates the imbalance when we attack. The full back is meant to be high and overload, yet if they do they imbalance and if they don't...they imbalance.
When you're consistently attempting to thread the ball through the eye of a needle to set your centre forward away, you inevitably turn the ball over. We are hoisted by our own petard and the midfield isn't equipped to deal with the transition and we're back to the full backs and...you get the point.
A conundrum for Emery to solve and I assume the £80m of players in Maatsen and Onana are part of that solution. As is Ramsey, for Emery loves a strong runner with the ball throughout his managerial career. One day we'll see them.
Maatsen picks two lines; the high wide for a 5th attacker and curiously that inner central run. I think its time for him now.
Plenty of players out of form, injuries at the wrong time, an away fixture run of Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea. Not excuses, just circumstances, it's all it really ever is.
And now we have fresh ones; Brentford, Southampton and Das MK Dons- let's have a good week. It's not about wholesale change, it's about fine tuning. I can think of no better man for the job than Emery to find that accuracy.
Well said and all that. As well as Digne has played, we’ve never looked as good under Emery, as when Ramsey and Moreno were rampaging down the left, so agree its time for Maatsen.
And Risso is completely wrong about Torres.
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I'm not. He simply can't defend. Go and have a look at the first and third goals again today. Absolutely hopeless, he's just wandering around like a fart in a spacesuit.
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Appalling performance. Very much looks like he's lost the dressing room
Absolutely no chance whatsoever.
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We were very poor again today and Chelsea won at a canter. At HT I thought Digne and Kamara were our best players, but that changed in the second half when everybody was absolute crap.
Watkins' misses up top are killing our fragile confidence and making us very nervous in possession both in defence and midfield. We are also missing Onana and JJ. Our questionable summer transfer activity has also made us significantly worse, starting XI and squad. All this, and recent results, are combining to drain all confidence out of the team and individual performances have gone to shit. Emery doesn't get off the hook either, he's made mistakes which only exacerbate the problems.
Assuming the injured stay injured, I would bring Mings in for Torres, defending > passing, I would make McGinn (Onana) and Kamara the holding two and push Tielemans to 10 with Rogers (JJ/Maatsen) and Bailey either side. Probably start with Watkins because Duran is not the team player that Ollie can be. I would also tell all of 'em to "Wake the F@#$ up and show some aggression and desire."
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McGinn needs dropping almost as badly as Bailey/Philogene. He's been awful for ages, I genuinely can't remember the last good game he had.
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First time I think I've ever seen 2 players booked for diving in the same game. Any advances on 2 players? About the most remarkable thing I can recall. There was a steam engine in Solihull Station that we've just passed, but I missed it. I can only faintly taste Jaegar and other concoctions from last night. So concludes a forgettable day. Well almost, as Moor Street is still aways from home.
We deserved to lose. That's what happens when you're poor in both boxes. Call me mad, but I'd actually prefer at this point to improve in the other box, the one Watkins missed 3 opportunities in. Yes, it's not either or but I clap my hands when we make a good block, I wave them around when we score.
Chelsea are a better side than they were. Just tighter in what they do, which is what its all about really. Marginal gains and fine margins. Cracking third, suboptimal defending for the other 2 goals and we did our best to gift with seasonal generosity.
The system requires precision to work. Full backs slightly deeper to account for weakness in transition with only Kamara as the pivot and yet this paradoxically creates the imbalance when we attack. The full back is meant to be high and overload, yet if they do they imbalance and if they don't...they imbalance.
When you're consistently attempting to thread the ball through the eye of a needle to set your centre forward away, you inevitably turn the ball over. We are hoisted by our own petard and the midfield isn't equipped to deal with the transition and we're back to the full backs and...you get the point.
A conundrum for Emery to solve and I assume the £80m of players in Maatsen and Onana are part of that solution. As is Ramsey, for Emery loves a strong runner with the ball throughout his managerial career. One day we'll see them.
Maatsen picks two lines; the high wide for a 5th attacker and curiously that inner central run. I think its time for him now.
Plenty of players out of form, injuries at the wrong time, an away fixture run of Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea. Not excuses, just circumstances, it's all it really ever is.
And now we have fresh ones; Brentford, Southampton and Das MK Dons- let's have a good week. It's not about wholesale change, it's about fine tuning. I can think of no better man for the job than Emery to find that accuracy.
Well said. Well observed. Good context and balance. Great perspective.
These have been disappointing and frustrating weeks. But the future remains very bright indeed.
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McGinn needs dropping almost as badly as Bailey/Philogene. He's been awful for ages, I genuinely can't remember the last good game he had.
He looks a stone overweight
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Torres is getting plenty of flak but in all honesty, the whole of the back 4 were absolutely rubbish today. That goes for the others though. Rogers really looks shattered and yes, Watkins IS costing us points. Last season, his misses were made up by goals from Dougie, Diaby and an in form Bailey. There lies the reason for this drop, we’ve not replaced those goals. Others need replacing, Cash for instance and Philogene. I’m sure Emery will put this right sooner rather than later
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A poor performance admittedly against a club with an a) and b) team one of which spent the week preparing for this game. We don't have that luxury and are clearly struggling to complete in Champions League and top level Premiership.
We have come too far to collapse back into mediocrity. I back Unai and staff to find answers. Onwards and Upwards!
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We generally played crap but if Watkins scored that chance at 1-0 it’s a different game, he also had a chance towards the end of the first half, that was a slightly less feeble effort.
The story of Watkins if he'd scored that chance it'd be different. Done with Watkins now if he scored 1/4 of the chances he gets per season he'd be on Haaland numbers. He needs so many chances per game just to get 1, everyone said he had a great game vs Bayern Munich but how many times did he actually test Neuer? Duran came one and scored with his 1st chance. Time to drop either tell Watkins to play off Duran or sell him because he isn't a lone striker.
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I'm not. He simply can't defend. Go and have a look at the first and third goals again today. Absolutely hopeless, he's just wandering around like a fart in a spacesuit.
Had a bad game today. Best get rid then.
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If Watkins had Duran s killer instinct.
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If Watkins had Duran s killer instinct.
Honestly, I think we need to give Duran an extend run as the number 9 now.
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If Watkins had Duran s killer instinct.
Honestly, I think we need to give Duran an extend run as the number 9 now.
Has been the case for ages.
I'd be furious if I was Duran.
Duran is nowhere near as wasteful and that has been obvious for a long time.
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If Watkins had Duran s killer instinct.
Honestly, I think we need to give Duran an extend run as the number 9 now.
Kind of agree, some people moan that duran doesnt do much sometimes when he comes on. ten , fifteen , twenty minutes sometimes inst enough especially coming into a team who are playing rubbish.
Bailey had a massive run when he was poor , Rogers keeps starting games , he was rubbish again today , watkins has started 49 out 50 games I think .
I would like to see Duran get a run , you can always get him off about 65 minutes but lets give him 3 or 4 games now.
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I'd start Duran Wednesday night
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It true though that Watkins was unlucky today - his shot when alone with their keeper was saved with the keepers downcoming ass after it had passed between his legs - if memory serve me right.
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We’re playing so badly just now that I think even Man City would beat us!
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We’re playing so badly just now that I think even Man City would beat us!
Man City kind of look in a state not unlike ourselves, fallen from form and lacking in confidence and look disorganised with useless wingers among other things.
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
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Whats Duran done to warrant a start since the beginning of October. Randomness.
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
9th top scorer in the league ?! That is something i'd leave off my CV
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Whats Duran done to warrant a start since the beginning of October. Randomness.
What's Watkins done to start?
Watkins isn't working and if something isn't working you need to try something different because if you don't then nothing will change
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
He’s always been the same, misses plenty of chances but all strikers do, Salah missed one today that he’d normally bury and Haarland has missed sitters as well. Because of the teams form as a whole Watkins misses are more costly at the moment.
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He scored last weekend didn’t he? Forced a brilliant save the other night? Scored 19 goals in the league last year, probably worth a bit of latitude.
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I think someone at the club should know by now how to play Watkins and Duran together even if they don't start together.
Many say we can't play them both together, but that can't be right. Both of them seem to go into a bit of a sulk mode when they are on the pitch together.
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He scored last weekend didn’t he? Forced a brilliant save the other night? Scored 19 goals in the league last year, probably worth a bit of latitude.
and with 3 games in 6 days he needs to be rotated
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He scored last weekend didn’t he? Forced a brilliant save the other night? Scored 19 goals in the league last year, probably worth a bit of latitude.
Last week he scored a tap in even I would have scored then in the second half had an opportunity and set up to shoot then dithered
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He scored last weekend didn’t he? Forced a brilliant save the other night? Scored 19 goals in the league last year, probably worth a bit of latitude.
Last week he scored a tap in even I would have scored then in the second half had an opportunity and set up to shoot then dithered
The Palace goal? You probably wouldn’t have. How about the 19 goals in the league last year and all the assists. He’s obviously useless…
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
9th top scorer in the league ?! That is something i'd leave off my CV
Well maybe 3rd last year will do. The point is he’s still scoring a fair few goals even in a team that is struggling.
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Not long got back… Abject showing today.
I can cope with players being out of form, but what I can’t stand is shit goalkeepers and defenders taking a fucking age to get the ball into play and up the business end of the pitch, even when 2-0 down.
Ollie had good enough chances to come away with the match ball today - How much longer are we going to suffer his third of a season goal drought?? Just hit the fucking thing!!
Poor starting eleven from Unai too - Bailey had his best game in ages midweek, so what does he do, put a chink in his fragile confidence by dropping him and replacing him with a £10million pound mistake from the championship.
*another special mention for Unai for starting Rogers yet again too. Brilliant decision.
Bloody annoyed. Cannot see where our next points are coming from.
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He scored last weekend didn’t he? Forced a brilliant save the other night? Scored 19 goals in the league last year, probably worth a bit of latitude.
Last week he scored a tap in even I would have scored then in the second half had an opportunity and set up to shoot then dithered
The Palace goal? You probably wouldn’t have. How about the 19 goals in the league last year and all the assists. He’s obviously useless…
Think I can manage to put a ball in an empty net. Sky commentator today said we should be encouraged by the spaces Watkins is nearly finding. Sums him up perfectly he's not a lone striker he's just a better version of Weimann he needs to play off a proper striker.
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
9th top scorer in the league ?! That is something i'd leave off my CV
Well maybe 3rd last year will do. The point is he’s still scoring a fair few goals even in a team that is struggling.
He is Paul, but he continues to miss gilt edged chances in key moments of games , we cannot win anything with a striker like that
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I think we’ll be lucky to get one point out of the next two matches. We’re abject.
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
My narrative it’s very simple, and I don’t mind admitting it
We’ve got a better striker in Jhon Duran that we need to promote, he’s only going to improve and get better Where as Watkins isn’t
God forbid we sell Duran in the next window, if anyone goes it should be Watkins but I don’t think we’ll get the money anymore that ship has sailed
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
My narrative it’s very simple, and I don’t mind admitting it
We’ve got a better striker in Jhon Duran that we need to promote, he’s only going to improve and get better Where as Watkins isn’t
God forbid we sell Duran in the next window, if anyone goes it should be Watkins but I don’t think we’ll get the money anymore that ship has sailed
I said the same on another thread.
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He scored last weekend didn’t he? Forced a brilliant save the other night? Scored 19 goals in the league last year, probably worth a bit of latitude.
Last week he scored a tap in even I would have scored then in the second half had an opportunity and set up to shoot then dithered
The Palace goal? You probably wouldn’t have. How about the 19 goals in the league last year and all the assists. He’s obviously useless…
Think I can manage to put a ball in an empty net. Sky commentator today said we should be encouraged by the spaces Watkins is nearly finding. Sums him up perfectly he's not a lone striker he's just a better version of Weimann he needs to play off a proper striker.
He took the ball on the run, rounded the keeper and then hit it in the empty net, you eejit.
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Duran is a brilliant instinctive goal scorer, he’s not actually that great in terms of his all round game at times. Not saying he won’t get there, but the idea that Watkins isn’t up to much is just wrong. Just look at last season - in the league he was involved in over 30 goals in the league.
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I can't remember the last time I wanted to watch MotD.
Many of us knew that CL qualification and being hit by PRS would be challenging, as Newcastle showed, but I wasn't prepared for this.
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
My narrative it’s very simple, and I don’t mind admitting it
We’ve got a better striker in Jhon Duran that we need to promote, he’s only going to improve and get better Where as Watkins isn’t
God forbid we sell Duran in the next window, if anyone goes it should be Watkins but I don’t think we’ll get the money anymore that ship has sailed
I said the same on another thread.
He’s the future simple as that
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
9th top scorer in the league ?! That is something i'd leave off my CV
Well maybe 3rd last year will do. The point is he’s still scoring a fair few goals even in a team that is struggling.
He is Paul, but he continues to miss gilt edged chances in key moments of games , we cannot win anything with a striker like that
Exactly this, Duran was linked with moves away all summer, but Watkins despite all the goals last season there wasn't a single club looking at him why do you think that is? If you want to consistently compete at the top you can have a Watkins as your main striker he's too streaky
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Duran is a brilliant instinctive goal scorer, he’s not actually that great in terms of his all round game at times. Not saying he won’t get there, but the idea that Watkins isn’t up to much is just wrong. Just look at last season - in the league he was involved in over 30 goals in the league.
It’s this season that is the problem.
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It’s probably because Duran was gettable and we definitely didn’t want to sell Watkins. Again he was involved in over 30 goals in the league - if we’d tried to sell him in the summer there would have been uproar, and rightly so.
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Whats Duran done to warrant a start since the beginning of October. Randomness.
Tbf how many starts has watkins had and he has been pretty bad alot of the season. Duran deserves a start
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Duran is a brilliant instinctive goal scorer, he’s not actually that great in terms of his all round game at times. Not saying he won’t get there, but the idea that Watkins isn’t up to much is just wrong. Just look at last season - in the league he was involved in over 30 goals in the league.
It’s this season that is the problem.
He’s still got 6 goals and 2 assists in 13 league games it’s hardly disastrous.
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Starting with Torres.
I’d keep him. He’s excellent at what he does.
Unfortunately, we need him to be excellent at defending and he's not, he's dreadful.
He isn’t dreadful.
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Watkins seems an odd one for people to pick on today. He was probably our best player. Philogene and Rogers are the two that deserve the most flack.
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It’s probably because Duran was gettable and we definitely didn’t want to sell Watkins. Again he was involved in over 30 goals in the league - if we’d tried to sell him in the summer there would have been uproar, and rightly so.
Exactly, it’s like saying Haaland is shit because no one came in for him.
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The other thing i'd add is that McGinn isn't a captain. Once Mings is back i'd get the armband back onto him ASAP .
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Duran is a brilliant instinctive goal scorer, he’s not actually that great in terms of his all round game at times. Not saying he won’t get there, but the idea that Watkins isn’t up to much is just wrong. Just look at last season - in the league he was involved in over 30 goals in the league.
It’s this season that is the problem.
He’s still got 6 goals and 2 assists in 13 league games it’s hardly disastrous.
6 from 13 starts, compare that to Durans 4 from 12 appearances, of which i think only 2 have been starts (both of which he scored in) . Watkins starts every game but is only 2 ahead of Duran not great is it. If be fuming if I was Duran, put my in Durans position and I'd have never signed that new contract
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Duran is a brilliant instinctive goal scorer, he’s not actually that great in terms of his all round game at times. Not saying he won’t get there, but the idea that Watkins isn’t up to much is just wrong. Just look at last season - in the league he was involved in over 30 goals in the league.
It’s this season that is the problem.
He’s still got 6 goals and 2 assists in 13 league games it’s hardly disastrous.
Not disastrous I agree, but his misses have been expensive this season.
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Duran is a brilliant instinctive goal scorer, he’s not actually that great in terms of his all round game at times. Not saying he won’t get there, but the idea that Watkins isn’t up to much is just wrong. Just look at last season - in the league he was involved in over 30 goals in the league.
It’s this season that is the problem.
He’s still got 6 goals and 2 assists in 13 league games it’s hardly disastrous.
6 from 13 starts, compare that to Durans 4 from 12 appearances, of which i think only 2 have been starts (both of which he scored in) . Watkins starts every game but is only 2 ahead of Duran not great is it. If be fuming if I was Duran, put my in Durans position and I'd have never signed that new contract
But it’s not as straightforward as that. If you actually watch Duran when he starts he’s often quite disjointed in his play. Now admittedly it doesn’t look great at the moment because we’re struggling, but Ollie’s play as the lone front man brings a lot - he scores plenty of goals and assists a lot. Duran is young and is a great option, but the idea that he’s suddenly a better player than Ollie because he’s had a good streak of goals just isn’t accurate.
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The other thing i'd add is that McGinn isn't a captain. Once Mings is back i'd get the armband back onto him ASAP .
I agree. I think the captaincy never should have been taken off mings. Absolute joke by gerrard
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The other thing i'd add is that McGinn isn't a captain. Once Mings is back i'd get the armband back onto him ASAP .
I agree. I think the captaincy never should have been taken off mings. Absolute joke by gerrard
We did qualify for CL football post Gerrard. Mings wasnt captain then either.
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I think someone at the club should know by now how to play Watkins and Duran together even if they don't start together.
Many say we can't play them both together, but that can't be right. Both of them seem to go into a bit of a sulk mode when they are on the pitch together.
They can't play up top together.
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The other thing i'd add is that McGinn isn't a captain. Once Mings is back i'd get the armband back onto him ASAP .
I agree. I think the captaincy never should have been taken off mings. Absolute joke by gerrard
We did qualify for CL football post Gerrard. Mings wasnt captain then either.
It’s a bit like that centre back who is completely incompetent and can’t defend who played in most games when we qualified for the Champions League - and has played I think in every game in that competition where we haven’t conceded a goal.
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Duran is a brilliant instinctive goal scorer, he’s not actually that great in terms of his all round game at times. Not saying he won’t get there, but the idea that Watkins isn’t up to much is just wrong. Just look at last season - in the league he was involved in over 30 goals in the league.
It’s this season that is the problem.
He’s still got 6 goals and 2 assists in 13 league games it’s hardly disastrous.
6 from 13 starts, compare that to Durans 4 from 12 appearances, of which i think only 2 have been starts (both of which he scored in) . Watkins starts every game but is only 2 ahead of Duran not great is it. If be fuming if I was Duran, put my in Durans position and I'd have never signed that new contract
But it’s not as straightforward as that. If you actually watch Duran when he starts he’s often quite disjointed in his play. Now admittedly it doesn’t look great at the moment because we’re struggling, but Ollie’s play as the lone front man brings a lot - he scores plenty of goals and assists a lot. Duran is young and is a great option, but the idea that he’s suddenly a better player than Ollie because he’s had a good streak of goals just isn’t accurate.
Brings a lot of missed opportunities, today had Watkins scored the game would have been different. It's a stuck record, as I've said everyone said how good Watkins was vs Bayern but Neuer had it easy then Duran came on and the had the ball going over his head into the goal, Watkins would never have done what Duran did that game.
I'm not saying playing Duran is guaranteed to work but it's got to the point now that it's worth a try because persisting with Watkins is not working
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It’s a bit like that centre back who is completely incompetent and can’t defend who played in most games when we qualified for the Champions League - and has played I think in every game in that competition where we haven’t conceded a goal.
Which competition is that?
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It’s a bit like that centre back who is completely incompetent and can’t defend who played in most games when we qualified for the Champions League - and has played I think in every game in that competition where we haven’t conceded a goal.
Which competition is that?
Champions League, although maybe Pau hasn’t played in those games? I’m not being snarky I genuinely am not sure. I know he played against Bayern and Juve.
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It’s a bit like that centre back who is completely incompetent and can’t defend who played in most games when we qualified for the Champions League - and has played I think in every game in that competition where we haven’t conceded a goal.
Which competition is that?
Champions League, although maybe Pau hasn’t played in those games? I’m not being snarky I genuinely am not sure. I know he played against Bayern and Juve.
Pretty sure the only game he hasn’t played was against Brugge.
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Just a shit day at office. Come weds we will be fine
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Watkins will start, he’s like Kane for England undroppable
I know we love a narrative, but he’s the 9th top scorer in the league and last season got 19 league goals and 19 odd assists. He’s hardly hopeless.
My narrative it’s very simple, and I don’t mind admitting it
We’ve got a better striker in Jhon Duran that we need to promote, he’s only going to improve and get better Where as Watkins isn’t
God forbid we sell Duran in the next window, if anyone goes it should be Watkins but I don’t think we’ll get the money anymore that ship has sailed
I said the same on another thread.
He’s the future simple as that
Watkins might not be here for much longer, but Duran is not going to be our number one choice whilst Emery is here. Even if you ignore that he’s nowhere near as good as Watkins, Emery would have to completely change his style of play and what he wants from a striker.
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Watkins is what 29 , 30 now ?
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Duran has scored some nice goals but offers a lot less to the team than Watkins. It might be time to give Watkins a rest but it’s crazy to suggest Duran is the better player. A better finisher? Sure, but so was Danny Ings.
We haven’t been in good form for most of this season, but most of the games could have turned out differently with one or two balls falling a bit differently for either side or a bit more clinical finishing. That’s probably true of last season too and perhaps things just went our way more often.
It’s deeply frustrating as with such a tight league we can still stay in the mix if we hit a bit of form. But it feels like a chance to qualify for a second consecutive champions league campaign is starting to slip away, and with it perhaps a generational chance at empire building.
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The other thing i'd add is that McGinn isn't a captain. Once Mings is back i'd get the armband back onto him ASAP .
I agree. I think the captaincy never should have been taken off mings. Absolute joke by gerrard
We did qualify for CL football post Gerrard. Mings wasnt captain then either.
The reason we got champions league wasnt because mcginn was captain. It was because the squad was better last season and 4th best team in league.
Mings was and always will be a better captain than mcginn for me
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just seen footage of Duran (whilst warming up) hugging Enzo just before he takes a corner . Please just fuck off with this shit . Clown .
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just seen footage of Duran (whilst warming up) hugging Enzo just before he takes a corner . Please just fuck off with this shit . Clown .
I saw haaland and salah having a laugh after liverpool scored second on pitch. Its becoming more common now
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Appalling performance. Very much looks like he's lost the dressing room
Total bollox.
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McGinn sums it up for me, the biggest asset he has is tenacity, always being involved and being a little fighter. I saw non of that today, he appeared to be going through the motions and you have to expect more from the captain. Rogers is so poor at the moment it's like playing with ten men and Philogene... what's the point in playing him.
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Torres is getting plenty of flak but in all honesty, the whole of the back 4 were absolutely rubbish today. That goes for the others though. Rogers really looks shattered and yes, Watkins IS costing us points. Last season, his misses were made up by goals from Dougie, Diaby and an in form Bailey. There lies the reason for this drop, we’ve not replaced those goals. Others need replacing, Cash for instance and Philogene. I’m sure Emery will put this right sooner rather than later
I know it’s been dismissed by many, but I wonder if picking the only defensive line-up capable of keeping a clean sheet might help?
I’m assuming people have noticed which one that is by now right?
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If Watkins had Duran s killer instinct.
Honestly, I think we need to give Duran an extend run as the number 9 now.
Has been the case for ages.
I'd be furious if I was Duran.
Duran is nowhere near as wasteful and that has been obvious for a long time.
If we’re seriously going to progress, we can’t have any player expecting to hold down their place when they’re not hitting the heights. I feel right now that Ollie just expects to start. Even if he had a much much longer term future, Ollie’s minutes are going to need to be managed at some point because of his age and because of his playing style. Some of the arguments against Duran are based on him not pressing as much and leading the line. We won’t know that until we see him get an extended run of games.
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If Watkins had Duran s killer instinct.
Honestly, I think we need to give Duran an extend run as the number 9 now.
Kind of agree, some people moan that duran doesnt do much sometimes when he comes on. ten , fifteen , twenty minutes sometimes inst enough especially coming into a team who are playing rubbish.
Bailey had a massive run when he was poor , Rogers keeps starting games , he was rubbish again today , watkins has started 49 out 50 games I think .
I would like to see Duran get a run , you can always get him off about 65 minutes but lets give him 3 or 4 games now.
His ceiling is higher than Ollie’s. He needs time to build relationships with those regular starters so each knows what the other is doing. He deserves a real chance to show what he can do.
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Torres is getting plenty of flak but in all honesty, the whole of the back 4 were absolutely rubbish today. That goes for the others though. Rogers really looks shattered and yes, Watkins IS costing us points. Last season, his misses were made up by goals from Dougie, Diaby and an in form Bailey. There lies the reason for this drop, we’ve not replaced those goals. Others need replacing, Cash for instance and Philogene. I’m sure Emery will put this right sooner rather than later
I know it’s been dismissed by many, but I wonder if picking the only defensive line-up capable of keeping a clean sheet might help?
I’m assuming people have noticed which one that is by now right?
It’s not just about the defence, you must know that given I know you’re looking at the stats.
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The other thing i'd add is that McGinn isn't a captain. Once Mings is back i'd get the armband back onto him ASAP .
I agree. I think the captaincy never should have been taken off mings. Absolute joke by gerrard
We did qualify for CL football post Gerrard. Mings wasnt captain then either.
It’s a bit like that centre back who is completely incompetent and can’t defend who played in most games when we qualified for the Champions League - and has played I think in every game in that competition where we haven’t conceded a goal.
Carlos? He's shocking. Whisper it but most of the CL teams we have played, including Juve without a forward, are fairly average. Bologna and Berne were rubbish. Brugge played us off the pitch but are average at best.
22 goals conceded in 13 PL games is verging on a shambles. Our defence was in trouble second half of last season too and has got worse. Torres hasn't been the same player since his injury around last Feb, maybe coinciding with Kamara's injury around then. He didn't get one iota physically stronger over the summer. When he has to defend, he simply cannot. Weak as piss and zero recovery pace. If he stays in the team for his playmaking ability then Kamara and Onana will need to step up in front of him. Tielemans has to be moved out of there as he provides no support.
If Mings is fully fit, he opens up other possibilities. He can cover in behind the left back like he did for Moreno. He can play in a high line with confidence. He's physically stronger, quicker and also a leader where we have none currently, I'm counting Konsa in that who is more of a follower than a leader. He doesn't have Torres playmaking ability but he should have come into the team after the Spurs debacle for me.
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I mean Pau. He’s the one primarily getting called out as hopeless, and it’s daft.
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It’s not true he can’t defend - he’s not a big physical presence, but he can defend fine. I keep saying it, but it is the midfield that’s killing us (+ the lack of means to change style).
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It’s not true he can’t defend - he’s not a big physical presence, but he can defend fine. I keep saying it, but it is the midfield that’s killing us (+ the lack of means to change style).
It's both at the minute, he's making bad decisions and getting exposed, but he's always going to be exposed with the midfield as it is.
Shockingly I agree with Bronte that we should be playing Onana and Kamara when possible, and perhaps Barkley and Kamara when not. Tielemans needs to be further forward; terrific player, but in too many situations he's just like a big hole in there at the minute.
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You can interchange centre backs all you want, if we don’t get the midfield both providing some protection and also linking play on a consistent basis we’re going to continue to struggle.
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It’s not true he can’t defend - he’s not a big physical presence, but he can defend fine. I keep saying it, but it is the midfield that’s killing us (+ the lack of means to change style).
He can't . The stats don't lie. He's a huge issue as a central defender in the EPL .
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It’s not true he can’t defend - he’s not a big physical presence, but he can defend fine. I keep saying it, but it is the midfield that’s killing us (+ the lack of means to change style).
It's certainly a problem and a huge drop off when Luiz/Kamara were playing there last season. But when very average forwards like Mateta, Jimenez etc are clearly dropping onto Torres to bully him then it doesn't matter if prime Roy Keane was in our midfield. Again Mings, if fit, would be far more comfortable defending in that scenario.
I think Torres confidence has been rocking since his nightmare at Spurs, even with his touch and passing which is normally elite. No harm to step out for a few games.
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Why doesn't Watkins square that first chance for a tap in? Carlos esque defending by the Chelsea defender that simply had to be punished.
3 very good goals scored by Chelsea with really quick passing and movement doing us. Cash could get tighter for the first cross but he's left 2 on 1 after Jaden lost the tackle. Konsa blaming Torres but if anything Konsa should be taking responsibility at front post. No screen in front of our centre backs for the second and third. Cash dragged into a position he shouldn't be to deal with Fernandes (Kamara MIA), Bailey half hearted tackle for third.
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Shocking performance today.
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Duran has scored some nice goals but offers a lot less to the team than Watkins. It might be time to give Watkins a rest but it’s crazy to suggest Duran is the better player. A better finisher? Sure, but so was Danny Ings.
We haven’t been in good form for most of this season, but most of the games could have turned out differently with one or two balls falling a bit differently for either side or a bit more clinical finishing. That’s probably true of last season too and perhaps things just went our way more often.
It’s deeply frustrating as with such a tight league we can still stay in the mix if we hit a bit of form. But it feels like a chance to qualify for a second consecutive champions league campaign is starting to slip away, and with it perhaps a generational chance at empire building.
You say games would turn out different if we'd been more clinical but dismiss our more clinical striker Duran and say Watkins who needs multiple chances to get 1 goal offers more. I like Watkins effort but no team is fighting at the top of the premier league has Watkins as their lead striker, that's the real reason no one has been sniffing around Watkins
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It feels as if Watkins is expected to score every chance he gets. The fact is he doesn't see an awful lot of the ball and some of his chances are self-generated so I'm not going to criticise him too much. Haaland and Salah miss a fair few, they just get fed a lot more.
The problem with starting Durán is that in the few times he has played from the beginning, he's been average at best. His qualities are his unpredictable playing off the cuff which unsettles defences, his powerful shots and his aerial ability. If he can be coached to have more awareness tactically, maybe you dull his strengths.
If clubs are offering daft money in January and we can use the money get in a winger with pace and another striker, I'd seriously consider it.
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We’re not making a top 4 spot and we’re not making a Conference spot either. I’ve never seen as much effort trying to gift the opposition goals. Dreadful. Only Digne looked up for it.
Cant blame Watkins or Konsa either.
Watkins had 2 chances that he would have put away last season.
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We were never likely to get anything from this game regardless but to shoot ourselves in the face like we did by:
Starting Jaden
The back pass
Emi's brainfart
Ollie missing sitters.
Without those we were up against it but with all that nonsense we were lambs to the slaughter.
It was the wrong fixture at the wrong time and we all knew it. Need to find some home form now.
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Tielemans should move further forward and Rogers out wide. Takes the pressure off Rogers who can just focus on running at people, and the defensive responsibility off Tielemans.
Cash Konsa Mings Digne
Kamara - Onana
McGinn Tielemans Rogers
Watkins
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It’s not true he can’t defend - he’s not a big physical presence, but he can defend fine. I keep saying it, but it is the midfield that’s killing us (+ the lack of means to change style).
He can't . The stats don't lie. He's a huge issue as a central defender in the EPL .
And I’ll say it again, was he playing when we had our outstanding run that ultimately got us a Champions League place? He’s not a major problem at all. He’s not perfect, but he has literally demonstrated he can be a key part of a side that was competing at the top of the league.
The difference is, as I keep saying, the midfield functioned then and it doesn’t now. Also a secondary part is we had Diaby who enabled us to play in a different way. But he’s another player you were at the front of the queue to call useless I think, and then touting Philogene as an upgrade. Still you might be right I suppose…
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It’s not true he can’t defend - he’s not a big physical presence, but he can defend fine. I keep saying it, but it is the midfield that’s killing us (+ the lack of means to change style).
He can't . The stats don't lie. He's a huge issue as a central defender in the EPL .
And I’ll say it again, was he playing when we had our outstanding run that ultimately got us a Champions League place? He’s not a major problem at all. He’s not perfect, but he has literally demonstrated he can be a key part of a side that was competing at the top of the league.
The difference is, as I keep saying, the midfield functioned then and it doesn’t now. Also a secondary part is we had Diaby who enabled us to play in a different way. But he’s another player you were at the front of the queue to call useless I think, and then touting Philogene as an upgrade. Still you might be right I suppose…
Paul, you make some really good points, in particular about the midfield, which I largely agree with. However, you’re up against it here, there are a handful of posters who believe what they believe, currently Torres and Watkins are shit and to blame for most of our current problems and they are not going to change their mind whatever well structured points you make.
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All those teams we'd started to beat regularly like Spurs and Chelsea but it feels like normal business resumed now. What an underwhelming first few months. The club is only interested in hospitality and fleecing the fans while on the pitch we look completely devoid of ideas and energy again. I've missed this misery.
We were having this discussion in the pub after the game. Obviously you can't blame Chris Heck for our on field problems but his decisions ever since arriving at Villa Park have taken away a lot of the euphoria that was building around the club. Cancelling the NS rebuild and forcing people to give up long held ST's in the NS lower was just the start. The ticketing prices for the European Cup nights is another. The Social was packed with Villa fans watching the game on telly for the Juve game and there was plenty of seats going begging in the ground. That just can't be right. I'm not into scapegoating and as i said previously he's not to blame for the current bad run but he's a public relations nightmare and that isn't helping in my humble opinion.
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The problem is rambo watkins consistent misses are costly us dear this season. Spurs for example has a geeat opportunity to put us two up misses, then we get battered 4-1. 2 up im sure we would have gone in to win the game. Same against arsenal liverpool and yesterday
As for pau very hit and miss at the moment. But i think collectively as a whole defensive ly we have been rubbish all year in the league
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There isn’t good options on the bench for most of the out of form players
There is for Watkins
he’s not to blame for all our ills but we have one of the best young strikers in Europe on the bench
that’s the difference between him and the other players not playing to their levels
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McGinn sums it up for me, the biggest asset he has is tenacity, always being involved and being a little fighter. I saw non of that today, he appeared to be going through the motions and you have to expect more from the captain. Rogers is so poor at the moment it's like playing with ten men and Philogene... what's the point in playing him.
I can't remember the last time I saw McGinn use his Kung Fu arse technique.
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Rogers Mcginn looked tired from the off. We are not coping with the midweek games.
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It feels as if Watkins is expected to score every chance he gets. The fact is he doesn't see an awful lot of the ball and some of his chances are self-generated so I'm not going to criticise him too much. Haaland and Salah miss a fair few, they just get fed a lot more.
The problem with starting Durán is that in the few times he has played from the beginning, he's been average at best. His qualities are his unpredictable playing off the cuff which unsettles defences, his powerful shots and his aerial ability. If he can be coached to have more awareness tactically, maybe you dull his strengths.
If clubs are offering daft money in January and we can use the money get in a winger with pace and another striker, I'd seriously consider it.
Not asking for every chance to score just a quarter would do as that'd easily get him passed 20 goals a season.
So you describe Duran being average at best when he's started... Strange considering the 2 games he's started this season he's scored in both of them. Watkins is too wasteful to be the main striker at a club fighting at the top end of the premier league it's as simple as that, can't knock his effort but you need more than that up here.
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I was surprised to see Rogers start after playing the full game on Wednesday.
The trouble is, there are no other attacking options at the moment.
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Watching Tielemans yesterday he looked like he was blowing out of his arse after about 10 minutes. He looked like that when he arrived but he seemed to have got his fitness levels up. He now looks unfit again which is a bit surprising. There was one incident in the first half which illustrated this nicely. He won the ball and the Chelsea player was left on his arse Tielemans was running goalwards looking to pick a pass. Their player got up, chased him down and effortlessly just took the ball back and set up a Chelsea attack. This kind of thing was happening all over the pitch yesterday which is quite concerning.
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Watching Tielemans yesterday he looked like he was blowing out of his arse after about 10 minutes. He looked like that when he arrived but he seemed to have got his fitness levels up. He now looks unfit again which is a bit surprising. There was one incident in the first half which illustrated this nicely. He won the ball and the Chelsea player was left on his arse Tielemans was running goalwards looking to pick a pass. Their player got up, chased him down and effortlessly just took the ball back and set up a Chelsea attack. This kind of thing was happening all over the pitch yesterday which is quite concerning.
Yeah, he looks like he's back to his arthritic 75 year old phase. And then he's playing next to McGinn who looks really out of shape, again.
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Did I hear the commentary say that Chelsea made 10 changes from their Europe match? Unfortunately we have too many players who know they are playing every match as we do not have the quality of players who can come in and keep the level of performance up. We need to show more enthusiasm and a definite attack in our play not keeping playing it about around the penalty area.
It's easy to make so many changes when you're playing in the Conference League rather than Champions League and have a squad worth billions.
Two games to save the season now. Win both and who knows? Fail to win both and we'll likely end up mid table - the table is starting to settle now.
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I think fail to win either game this week, and we'll drastically have to alter our ambitions for the season.
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Tielemans should move further forward and Rogers out wide. Takes the pressure off Rogers who can just focus on running at people, and the defensive responsibility off Tielemans.
Cash Konsa Mings Digne
Kamara - Onana
McGinn Tielemans Rogers
Watkins
Rogers is rubbish when he plays out there, like he was v Juve and last season. He isn't athletic enough to play that role. He just needs a spell out of the team which should have started a couple of weeks ago. That's on Emery.
Tielemans after an excellent start to the season has regressed to the shadow I was expecting he would be in that position. It's such an obvious change to move him into Rogers position for a few weeks, like he did to great effect at times last season. Playing him as a 6 at Chelsea was another poor decision by Emery.
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I think fail to win either game this week, and we'll drastically have to alter our ambitions for the season.
I already have unless we intend to spend big in January i think its 7th or 8th. We just not very good this year. If that happens we have to take the hit and learn from the mistakes we made this year.
Then give it another go next year. Chelsea for example wont have the luxury if playing a second string team in europe like they have been doing this year so it might be abit easier than this year if we miss out.
Id be amazed if this team with no additional signings finishes top 5. That would be a bigger achievement than last year if that happend
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Tielemans should move further forward and Rogers out wide. Takes the pressure off Rogers who can just focus on running at people, and the defensive responsibility off Tielemans.
Cash Konsa Mings Digne
Kamara - Onana
McGinn Tielemans Rogers
Watkins
Rogers is rubbish when he plays out there, like he was v Juve and last season. He isn't athletic enough to play that role. He just needs a spell out of the team which should have started a couple of weeks ago. That's on Emery.
Tielemans after an excellent start to the season has regressed to the shadow I was expecting he would be in that position. It's such an obvious change to move him into Rogers position for a few weeks, like he did to great effect at times last season. Playing him as a 6 at Chelsea was another poor decision by Emery.
We really miss a fit Jacob Ramsey: he squeezes defenders down our left side, creating space for others.
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Without alternative, pacy attacking options there is no-way we are getting into a CL place. Have we got the capacity to bring in two attacking players?
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By the way that was chelseas first clean sheet in 8.
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Oh my God, COULD THINGS GET ANY WORSE????
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Oh my God, COULD THINGS GET ANY WORSE????
Some bastards cursed us