Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on June 18, 2024, 10:18:56 PM
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I've been a bit busy - whaddya reckon?
https://heroesandvillains.info/2024/06/18/the-lerner-years-part-one/
https://heroesandvillains.info/2024/06/18/__trashed/
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Not only the right notes but also in the right order.
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Some blasts from the past there, whatever became of Michael Martin?
And who was making the threats on message boards?
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I'd totally forgotten Erik Bakke . And Phil Mepham.
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Some blasts from the past there, whatever became of Michael Martin?
And who was making the threats on message boards?
A clue - he needed a booster seat to reach the keyboard.
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Great read, Dave.
I found the most depressings bits were the mentions of Bill Howell.
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Enjoyed remembering that. It's easy to forget how optimistic people were at first. It obviously went horribly wrong in the end, but it wouldn't have taken too many different choices by either Lerner or O'Neill for us to have had some serious success. Even if, in hindsight, the structure never seemed to be in place for success to be long-term.
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What a fascinating read. It feels like it was just yesterday that the optimism of the early days of the Lerner era gave us all a renewed hope that the Villa were back. When did that hope disappear, Moscow?
As CD says it was just a case of what might have been with Lerner; a director of football to rein him in could have made all of the difference. He gave MON too much power and paid a huge financial price for that decision.
Trying to look at it dispassionately, under Lerner I thought that we were a rich man’s play thing but with Nas and Wes we have two astute businessmen at the helm and the evidence is clear in the progress that we have made under Unai.
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Phil Mepham? Who he?
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Some blasts from the past there, whatever became of Michael Martin?
And who was making the threats on message boards?
A clue - he needed a booster seat to reach the keyboard.
Ah yes.
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Phil Mepham? Who he?
Wasn’t he a local news reported beforehand?
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I read and agreed with something here about Lerner, for years we needed a very rich owner but the moment we got one it wasn’t enough anymore. Other clubs got the wealth of whole countries.
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Phil Mepham? Who he?
Wasn’t he a local news reported beforehand?
ITV Central sports editor I think although I may have inadvertently promoted him.
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Great read. Interesting that Lerner was only 44 when he became a billionaire from his fathers inheritance.
At the time i remember being full of optimism as Ellis was no longer going to be holding us back.
I wonder what would have been if Randy Lerner hadn't got a divorce.
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Dave, that was a rollercoaster. I'd totally forgotten about Padfield, about the Laursen's-5k-story, loads of it, great stuff.
Fun fact, that year, the first of the Lerner years and the first under MON, Unai scored his first major success by getting Almeria promoted to the top division for the first time in their history.
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Phil Mepham? Who he?
Wasn’t he a local news reported beforehand?
ITV Central sports editor I think although I may have inadvertently promoted him.
I was being facetious in all honesty. I recall him being appointed as our press officer and then vanishing from the face of the earth prompting the "who he?" thing that might have cropped up on here at the time.
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Great read. Interesting that Lerner was only 44 when he became a billionaire from his fathers inheritance.
At the time i remember being full of optimism as Ellis was no longer going to be holding us back.
I wonder what would have been if Randy Lerner hadn't got a divorce.
I don't think - at least I was told by someone close to the scene- that the financial implications of the divorce affected him much. What did for him was the effect on his son and his new, Anglophobic, woman.
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One for the financial bods, if his family money was held in a trust, is his financial exposure from the divorce in any way protected?
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One for the financial bods, if his family money was held in a trust, is his financial exposure from the divorce in any way protected?
Asking for a friend?
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One for the financial bods, if his family money was held in a trust, is his financial exposure from the divorce in any way protected?
To a certain extent yes. He was obviously entitled to his share of the money from the trust, and as his wife, she'd have been entitled to her share of that. Normally when it comes to people like that, they just thrash out a compromise. I don't think it was the divorce that did for him by itself, but it was one of a combination of things that didn't help, like the financial crisis.
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At the end of the Ellis era there was a story in the press that there had been a delegation or a letter of dissatisfaction signed by players sent to Ellis. Rumours were swirling about, Ellis instigated an investigation to get to the bottom of it. Thomas Sorenson was supposed to be a ringleader and issued a denial of any involvement. O'Leary who was probably behind stories was happy to go along with the rumours and essentially throw Sorenson under the bus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/5188862.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/5196872.stm
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There would almost certainly have been a pre-nup in place.
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That first game under Lerner and O’Neill at the brand new Emirates stadium ( Mellberg scoring the first ever league goal at the stadium?) was a truly great day out. Mad to think of the “USA, USA” chants that were coming from the Villa fans. Seems naive now but we were all desperate to move forward after years of treading water under Ellis.
It’s the bitter experience of the Lerner years that has made me ultra cautious of all subsequent owners/CEO/Heads of Operations that have run our club since then.
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Thanks for the reminders of a long-distant time, Dave. I remember the Ellis-Out marches, the fans discontent and the immediate infusion of optimism as the O'Neill - Lerner 'project' revealed itself. I was at the Emirates on the opening day and the vibes were totally buzzing.
Now, the optimism is flowing again, and I sense that there is more substance to our belief that we are heading in the right direction: then, it was relief at Ellis's departure; now, we have a whole infrastructure aimed at success.
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At the start of his custodianship, everything felt so optimistic and new. The way it ended up, everything felt negative and old. The bits in between were really good, if not genuinely great.
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For the money he spent and the teams we had we should have won something. The two Wembely trips in 2010 would have been the best bet but the wheels were coming of by then...
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One for the financial bods, if his family money was held in a trust, is his financial exposure from the divorce in any way protected?
Asking for a friend?
She tells me 'Money isn't required for a rich life'. So she's spent it all.
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Great read. Interesting that Lerner was only 44 when he became a billionaire from his fathers inheritance.
At the time i remember being full of optimism as Ellis was no longer going to be holding us back.
I wonder what would have been if Randy Lerner hadn't got a divorce.
I don't think - at least I was told by someone close to the scene- that the financial implications of the divorce affected him much. What did for him was the effect on his son and his new, Anglophobic, woman.
I don't think I know the story of the new squeeze being an England hater?
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Great read. Interesting that Lerner was only 44 when he became a billionaire from his fathers inheritance.
At the time i remember being full of optimism as Ellis was no longer going to be holding us back.
I wonder what would have been if Randy Lerner hadn't got a divorce.
I don't think - at least I was told by someone close to the scene- that the financial implications of the divorce affected him much. What did for him was the effect on his son and his new, Anglophobic, woman.
I don't think I know the story of the new squeeze being an England hater?
I've just been to Wickes. I don't blame her.
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This seems too recent in the past to revisit and too long ago to worry about. It was just another mediocre, false dawn.
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I've heard the comments about O'Neill being given too much power before. Genuine question, does Emery have too much power now? I accept the relative merits of their ability will no doubt come up but I'm more interested in whether Emery were to jump ship for any reason, just how damaging would it be?
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I think when you compare what the current owners are doing against the Lerner years and the knowledge of how they turned out, it makes Lerner seem like an amateur.
His legacy is the Holte Pub.
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I've heard the comments about O'Neill being given too much power before. Genuine question, does Emery have too much power now? I accept the relative merits of their ability will no doubt come up but I'm more interested in whether Emery were to jump ship for any reason, just how damaging would it be?
Very. We're fucked (again) when he goes. But hopefully we'll have finished top two and have a full summer to recover.
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I thinly liken the Lerner years as an owner to the Bruce years as a manager.
We were in deep sh!t when they came in and, basically, saved us.
In both cases we were probably in a better position when they left, but we were glad to see the back of them.
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I've heard the comments about O'Neill being given too much power before. Genuine question, does Emery have too much power now? I accept the relative merits of their ability will no doubt come up but I'm more interested in whether Emery were to jump ship for any reason, just how damaging would it be?
Very. We're fucked (again) when he goes. But hopefully we'll have finished top two and have a full summer to recover.
I think they're very different situations, though. O'Neill railed against any sort of oversight from anyone, and got rid of more than a few CEO's (both here and at sunderland, if memory serves). Unai has been given the tools to maximise the chance of him being a success at villa. Yes, if and when he leaves, it'll be a massive job to replace him (but even then i don't think Monchi will necessarily go immediately, given they've never been tied at the hip). Giving that sort of power on the footballing side is a calculated gamble, but one that we probably should be making.
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I remember how excited i was about the O'Neill appointment. Particularly given the rubbish that came before. What could have been.
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I think when you compare what the current owners are doing against the Lerner years and the knowledge of how they turned out, it makes Lerner seem like an amateur.
His legacy is the Holte Pub.
I think the investment Lerner bankrolled for Bodymoor Heath has set us up very well as a top club.
Ellis would never have spent the kind of money required to bring the facilities to the world class standard they are now.
I often wonder if it has an influence on players signing when they see the professional set up we have, especially when we were in the championship.
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I've heard the comments about O'Neill being given too much power before. Genuine question, does Emery have too much power now? I accept the relative merits of their ability will no doubt come up but I'm more interested in whether Emery were to jump ship for any reason, just how damaging would it be?
Very. We're fucked (again) when he goes. But hopefully we'll have finished top two and have a full summer to recover.
It is a little concerning how much we are placing all of our eggs into the Emery basket.
Granted, he is a fucking god like being for what he has done for us, but if we start to struggle, maybe for PSR reasons, etc, or he decides to leave for whatever reason, the we will be in a similar position to when that rat O'Neill scurried off after intentionally causing as much damage to Villa in order to protect the reputation he had carefully sculpted out for himself.
I like the way Brighton do things. They have a set way of playing for the club through to academy & any new manager has to have the skillset to be able to slot in & continue the work they have been doing for years. And then when youngsters cone through, they are already used to playing the same way as the first team so the transition isn't so difficult.
If we did that with our owners, our first team, our academy, etc, but with higher calibre managers than Brighton, then our growth could be a lot more sustainable...
Thats not a criticism of Emery in any way shape or form btw.
The man is the best manager we have had in my lifetime & I love him dearly. Best that I can properly remember anyways. I was three or four when we won the league, so no actual memory of that...
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I like the way Brighton do things. They have a set way of playing for the club through to academy & any new manager has to have the skillset to be able to slot in & continue the work they have been doing for years. And then when youngsters cone through, they are already used to playing the same way as the first team so the transition isn't so difficult.
If we did that with our owners, our first team, our academy, etc, but with higher calibre managers than Brighton, then our growth could be a lot more sustainable...
As an aside, that model was perfected by Ajax over many years, when they came here this year it was difficult to tell if they had now abandoned it or just got really really terrible at implementing it
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I've heard the comments about O'Neill being given too much power before. Genuine question, does Emery have too much power now? I accept the relative merits of their ability will no doubt come up but I'm more interested in whether Emery were to jump ship for any reason, just how damaging would it be?
Chicken and egg though. These elite managers need control to work properly , it's having as good a contingency plan as possible that is important.
It will be interesting to see how Liverpool do now and how C115y do when PG retires next year.
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Phil Mepham? Who he?
Any tenuous excuse to post this gem of a YT I randomly stumbled across after watching a John Gregory podcast a few months ago:
Phil Mepham the ITV central sports reporter talking to Bob Warman about John Gregory playing Guitar in a local band called the Swains (I think this was the Martin Swain who was a reporter for Express and Star).
Even more odd was they then went on some Ian Wright talk show and performed and pretty sure that's Paula Yates with them....
This all happened sometime in 2000 just before the infamous cup final!
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I read and agreed with something here about Lerner, for years we needed a very rich owner but the moment we got one it wasn’t enough anymore. Other clubs got the wealth of whole countries.
One club did.
We still should've had enough to finish above Spurs and Everton in that period but they generally signed more smartly.
Lerner ultimately was just another Xia. O'Neill sort of papered over the cracks for two years before his own limitations came to the fore.
Then after his tantrum departure no other strategy but dramatically cut costs and the dismal decade that followed.
Even Everton with hardly a penny last few years haven't just sold all their good internationals and replaced them with random league 1 and 2 players like we pretty much did.
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Xia was a conman that did time. Lerner was a billionaire, well intentioned but not a smart football club owner.
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Done.
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I thinly liken the Lerner years as an owner to the Bruce years as a manager.
We were in deep sh!t when they came in and, basically, saved us.
In both cases we were probably in a better position when they left, but we were glad to see the back of them.
We were definitely not in a better place when Lerner left compared to where we were when he bought us. He left us in the Championship and sold us to an absolute chancer. Some "custodian".
We had some decent years when Lerner was spending, and we were once again relevant, with some decent players; but his failing was that he knew nothing about football or the business, and didn't get anyone of sufficient quality of knowhow to administer the club, and he himself failed to provide any long-term vision or strategy - or even the basic idea of how to run a professional football club.
MON was basically just Steve Bruce with a bigger budget. There was no long-term planning or strategy; and he generally pissed Randy's cash up the wall with too many middle of the road signings (and admittedly a few excellent ones). No youth development, no squad rotation - same selection every week, and then left us in the lurch.
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I read and agreed with something here about Lerner, for years we needed a very rich owner but the moment we got one it wasn’t enough anymore. Other clubs got the wealth of whole countries.
One club did.
One club did directly but there was plenty of money sloshing around the PL which was state owned but had been criminally redirected into private hands, Chelsea being the obvious example a few years earlier.
Xia was a conman that did time. Lerner was a billionaire, well intentioned but not a smart football club owner.
Agreed.
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I thinly liken the Lerner years as an owner to the Bruce years as a manager.
We were in deep sh!t when they came in and, basically, saved us.
In both cases we were probably in a better position when they left, but we were glad to see the back of them.
We were definitely not in a better place when Lerner left compared to where we were when he bought us. He left us in the Championship and sold us to an absolute chancer. Some "custodian".
We had some decent years when Lerner was spending, and we were once again relevant, with some decent players; but his failing was that he knew nothing about football or the business, and didn't get anyone of sufficient quality of knowhow to administer the club, and he himself failed to provide any long-term vision or strategy - or even the basic idea of how to run a professional football club.
MON was basically just Steve Bruce with a bigger budget. There was no long-term planning or strategy; and he generally pissed Randy's cash up the wall with too many middle of the road signings (and admittedly a few excellent ones). No youth development, no squad rotation - same selection every week, and then left us in the lurch.
I get what you’re saying, and can’t argue, but he wasn’t the only one to fall for a Chinese Chancer, he was well and truly hoodwinked, even the due diligence failed to spot it.
I just feel that had Ellis stayed longer he may very well have run us down to the 3rd division, he was putting nothing into the club.
When Bruce came in we were heading that way. We were a complete shambles. He managed to pull the rip cord and stopped the free fall. I agree the football wasn’t great, but at the time that was probably the least of our worries.
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He was desperate to sell. The sale memorandum was being hawked around for months. He put a ridiculously valuation on the club and there were no takers. He ended up selling in the bottom basement market to a conman or the front for a bunch of them.
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It was great for 3/4 years and I have fond memories of many away days in London and the Villa fans I met down there. I remember about 25 London Villa off here turned up at a pub in Marylebone to watch an away against Liverpool, great night. Villa felt dynamic and forward thinking again after a few years of staleness, it was an exciting time to be a Villa fan.
Doug’s unpopularity and the reasons why are spoken about in the article and I’m always amazed at younger supporters seeing him as some old fatherly figure Villa legend rather than a penny pinching mediocrity who failed to grasp the future for Villa when the Prem was founded and ran the place like a corner shop. Then I remember that he sold the club nearly 20 years ago and younger fans probably have no idea how intensely Doug was disliked by a lot of the fanbase. And I feel old.
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I feel the same Stu. Then I remember how there was still a sizeable rump of the support that still thought well of Ellis' running of the club throughout the 90's and into the 00's, presumably for his part on the late 60's.
Oh and you're giving me 10 years I think so if you feel old where does that put me?
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Was it '101 reasons to hate your chairman' in the fanzine? Something like that, anyway that was what opened my eyes to Doug, I'd have been about 12 or 13 at the time.
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Great read. Interesting that Lerner was only 44 when he became a billionaire from his fathers inheritance.
At the time i remember being full of optimism as Ellis was no longer going to be holding us back.
I wonder what would have been if Randy Lerner hadn't got a divorce.
I don't think - at least I was told by someone close to the scene- that the financial implications of the divorce affected him much. What did for him was the effect on his son and his new, Anglophobic, woman.
I'd almost forgotten about her not wanting to spend romantic weekends with Randy in Birmingham.
What more than anything for me was the collapse of Bank of America in 2008. MBNA had been sold to them for $35bn but the deal was more about a share swap rather than pure cash. There was cash involved but the majority of the Lerner family's billions were tied up in Bank of America shares.
When Randy bought us in 2006 Bank of America shares were trading at their highest ever value, a few years later with the global financial crash they were trading at a tiny fraction of that value, plus as everybody was cutting up their credit cards, revenue massively dropped. It was pretty much the perfect storm. On paper at least, apart from some cash he had in the bank, he'd pretty much been wiped out (by billionaire standards).
It's no surprise the family wanted him to drop his vanity project, realistically football clubs aren't the best investments and we had to live within our means. Only problem was MON didn't want to trade players even though there were plenty he rarely used. Probably too much work for him plus it would also demonstrate how much money he had overpaid and wasted.
Realistically, I don't think we stood a chance even if his new lady wanted a season ticket in the Holte and a few pints in the Bartons after. The money had gone. Great read though and a wonderful reminder that as bad as Ellis was, and he held us back at every opportunity, before Lerner bought us, there were potential new owners even worse than the Corner shop man and his penny pinching. I can still see the interview of Michael Neville being interviewed outside his maisonette.
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I feel the same Stu. Then I remember how there was still a sizeable rump of the support that still thought well of Ellis' running of the club throughout the 90's and into the 00's, presumably for his part on the late 60's.
Oh and you're giving me 10 years I think so if you feel old where does that put me?
I’m 44 next month, you can’t be in your mid-fifties!
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Did anyone on here write the "Young Doug' comic strip that used to be printed in the fanzine?
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I feel the same Stu. Then I remember how there was still a sizeable rump of the support that still thought well of Ellis' running of the club throughout the 90's and into the 00's, presumably for his part on the late 60's.
Oh and you're giving me 10 years I think so if you feel old where does that put me?
I’m 44 next month, you can’t be in your mid-fifties!
53. Mind says 33. Body says 63.
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Did anyone on here write the "Young Doug' comic strip that used to be printed in the fanzine?
You think any of us are that clever?
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You're too modest Dave.
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A great read Dave and really took me back.
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Lerner's problem was that he put the money in but had zero idea how to get the best out of his investment.
I know I've posted this before, but even Man City, who have as close to an endless source of money as is possible, made sure they appointed the best football administrators in Europe when they struck it rich.
Lerner gave the roles to his dad's best mate, and a bloke who used to run call centres for him but, hey, he was British, so he must understand football.
And then he let MON run the football side of it absolutely unbothered by anyone with any sort of managerial nous.
It was a strange time, that. We were great away from home when we could utilise O'Neill's one tactic, ie counter attacking at speed, but utterly average at home where teams weren't stupid enough to fall for it.
Then the fact MON only bought two players from outside the British leagues, and even then, one of them was kind of plonked on his lap by Gerard Houllier. Absolutely half-arsed transfer policy that was already ten years out od date at the time.
What I can't forgive Lerner for is his absolute who-gives-a-fuck attitude once he'd shacked up with his new Mrs. I thought Gen Krulak got a lot of unfair stick, but he told us time and time again that they were going to be here through thick and thin, no matter how things turned out, and literally the minute things started getting ropey, he disappeared as well.
As a final kick in the teeth, Lerner sold us to an absolute fucking chancer who any half decent businessman would have seen through straight away.
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Reflecting back on the Lerner years , it was his mid life crisis played out in Aston. Mid 40's check, divorce check. Most of us would buy a sports car and start going up Broad Street on friday nights again. Lerner bought a football club and spunked £250m of inheritance up the wall. The Holte Pub looks good though and parts of the trinity backstage areas.
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Yes arguably the worst thing was selling to Tony Xia.
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He also did the tiles on the Holte End that make a lot of football tourists think they're looking at a Leitch masterpiece, rather than something that is probably more modern than their local Homebase.
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I wonder if he had the tattoo removed or still watches our games ever.
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Yes arguably the worst thing was selling to Tony Xia.
That was Steve Hollis's job wasn't it? He was appointed chairman in the last few months of wretched 15/16 to try to attract a competent bidder with his connections in the business world so that was a big fail with Xia the one who eventually was found.
Can anyone remember who was in the running in summer 2014? Apparently a takeover that summer fell through at the last minute as we were about to sack Lambert then but he then got a reprieve and unbelievably a new contract a few months later.
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Some blasts from the past there, whatever became of Michael Martin?
Irish PM for a time, brought in smoking ban back in the day.
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Great read Dave.
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Great read Dave.
Always a pleasure Daz.
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It was great for 3/4 years and I have fond memories of many away days in London and the Villa fans I met down there. I remember about 25 London Villa off here turned up at a pub in Marylebone to watch an away against Liverpool, great night. Villa felt dynamic and forward thinking again after a few years of staleness, it was an exciting time to be a Villa fan.
Doug’s unpopularity and the reasons why are spoken about in the article and I’m always amazed at younger supporters seeing him as some old fatherly figure Villa legend rather than a penny pinching mediocrity who failed to grasp the future for Villa when the Prem was founded and ran the place like a corner shop. Then I remember that he sold the club nearly 20 years ago and younger fans probably have no idea how intensely Doug was disliked by a lot of the fanbase. And I feel old.
It was a great period - easy to get tickets, always a big away following, some great sessions in the pubs before and after. Even the Chelsea humiliations. It’s not the same any more.
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Lerner's problem was that he put the money in but had zero idea how to get the best out of his investment.
I know I've posted this before, but even Man City, who have as close to an endless source of money as is possible, made sure they appointed the best football administrators in Europe when they struck it rich.
Lerner gave the roles to his dad's best mate, and a bloke who used to run call centres for him but, hey, he was British, so he must understand football.
And then he let MON run the football side of it absolutely unbothered by anyone with any sort of managerial nous..
If memory serves, we had a few top, respected men brought in to run the club before the young Paul Faulkner was gifted the YTS job, but MON basically refused to work with them. Faulkner he accepted as he could run rings around him.
I'm sure Dave can give the details as I recall him talking about it and what he'd heard.