Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Footy-Vill on April 12, 2024, 04:52:07 PM
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At a Premier League Shareholders’ meeting today, clubs unanimously agreed to the introduction of Semi-Automated Offside Technology.
The new system will be used for the first time in the Premier League next season, and it is anticipated the technology will be ready to be introduced after one of the autumn international breaks.
The technology will provide quicker and consistent placement of the virtual offside line, based on optical player tracking, and will produce high-quality broadcast graphics to ensure an enhanced in-stadium and broadcast experience for supporters.
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What's wrong with the VAR thread!
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The system will use camera footage and tracking software to calculate the position of players at the moment of a potential offside, replacing the need for VAR teams to do so. In trials, this process has been shown to reduce the average length of a VAR decision by 31 seconds.
VARs may still be required to assess offside decisions in the event of a goal being scored, depending on the complexity of the assessment.
Webb and the referees’ body PGMOL are in discussions over allowing fans to see the footage examined by referees at VAR monitors at the same time as officials. There is the expectation that short messages on the outcome of VAR decisions will be announced by referees in stadiums next season.
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What's wrong with the VAR thread!
This is semi automated offsides- it's a new feature.
And worthy of own discussion as it's a major thing.
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I predict it will be a short discussion. I hate var, the very concept of it, but have always believed the one thing it can be used for is matter-of-fact decision verification. Like offside. And I for one shall welcome our AI plane-generating overlords.
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And the last bit will be like with the Women's World Cup, where all they really did was read out what came up on the screen anyway.
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And the bit before that will be us being blessed with an out-of-context picture of studs near a knee. Just because someone vaguely explains why they've made a shit decision doesn't stop it being a shit decision.
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I think it will be a noticeable improvement once the officials become competent in working the machines.
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The machine will do it itself. The only human input required will be subjective interpretation of interference and phases. Plenty of scope there for this country's officials to continue being world-leaders in nose-stickinginery.
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Good move .
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Just imagine the amount of re starts and free kicks but in quicker time this season because Aston Villa have caught their opponents offside 142 times in the Premier League this season, more than 40 more than any other side. Meanwhile, only Man City have been caught offside themselves less often than us!
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The machine will do it itself. The only human input required will be subjective interpretation of interference and phases. Plenty of scope there for this country's officials to continue being world-leaders in nose-stickinginery.
Yes, there is already a delay in deploying SAOT because for some reason the 24/25 season will not begin with the technology.
There's no consideration by the Premier League to be pioneers in embracing new technology and despite the fact that SAOT has been used by FIFA for around three years in tournaments and is currently used in the Champions League, World Cup, and this summers Men's Euros there seems to be an attitude not to let go of their authority and ability to control matches.
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The worst thing is that the luddites will not give full access to the power of this tech as it's been said that chosen to have 'opted out' and there will be no microchip in the ball, yet there are in all the existing systems? Why no micro chip in the ball for the Prem SAOT?
Make of that what you will. Conspiracy theories and cynical views aplenty!
So there are going to be a dozen or so specific cameras tracking player movements on just under 30 data points on a player's body with an algorithm used to determine if they are offside.
It will be significantly more accurate and efficient than the ref assistants yet the officials will try and mess up the system
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I'm assuming that the "semi" automated bit is to leave a bit of wriggle room to favour Man Utd?
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I'm assuming that the "semi" automated bit is to leave a bit of wriggle room to favour Man Utd?
Isn't it always.
In reply to FV
The tech requires x amount of extra cameras placed around each ground so I'm guessing the surveys, ordering, fitting and testing is why it is several matches into the season before they become officially operational. (First so many matches might be used for the calibrations to confirm it is working).
But if they are not using the accelerometers, then that is either down to Nike not having the opportunity to fit them, or it isn't as reliable tech yet. So I suspect we still will rely on the ref trying to pinpoint when the ball is touched last and then the computer will do all the lines instantly from that.
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Howard Webb PGMOL Chief Refereeing Officer, on the impact of SAOT
"It will make us quicker in a lot of situations involving tight offsides. Our defenders are really skilful at stepping up at the right time to play people offside, but also attackers are skilled at timing their runs as well. So we do have a lot of really tight offside situations in the Premier League.
"The assistants are also very good at making judgments in real-time, but, of course, they still need to be checked by the VAR and often players are leaning and there's maybe distance between the defenders and the attackers.
"So, at the moment we're using software, dropping lines from players' body positions, which takes time to do in a diligent way. Semi-automated offsides will speed that process up. There are still going to be some situations when there's a lot of players in close proximity, where we'll have to go through the existing system, if you like.
"But in many, many cases it [SAOT] will speed up the offside process because we won't have to place those lines. It'll be done for us by the software. So we are looking forward to making use of that to speed the game up."
"Semi-automated suggests to us where the offside line is, but we still have to check the kick point - make sure the computer selected the right one, make sure it's selected the right players, because we have to recognise who is the ... the defender that we're interested in, make sure it's identified the right players. And it's just like a validation really, of what the computer is suggesting to us.
"There's no indication [from SAOT] to the on-field officials as yet as to whether or not a player's offside. That might be something that comes down the track, where they get some information in real-time, which will prevent the delaying of flags. But that's some way off.
"But we're keeping a really close eye on anything that makes us more accurate, more efficient, and that benefits the game in a way that we think the VAR has overall in the last four to five years."
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We'd already have fourth with it, thanks to the Spurs bullshit against Liverpool earlier in the season.
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I'm assuming that the "semi" automated bit is to leave a bit of wriggle room to favour Man Utd?
Isn't it always.
In reply to FV
The tech requires x amount of extra cameras placed around each ground so I'm guessing the surveys, ordering, fitting and testing is why it is several matches into the season before they become officially operational. (First so many matches might be used for the calibrations to confirm it is working).
But if they are not using the accelerometers, then that is either down to Nike not having the opportunity to fit them, or it isn't as reliable tech yet. So I suspect we still will rely on the ref trying to pinpoint when the ball is touched last and then the computer will do all the lines instantly from that.
Surely the ball is a key part of it? What makes you think they're not using them?
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Ah yes! SAFT: Semi-Automated Footy-Vill Twaddle
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Surely the ball is a key part of it? What makes you think they're not using them?
FV's posted they were not. Obviously it WAS FV posting but I did take it as correct info at the time. However the ball tech makes it even faster, the slow part of VAR is getting the lines drawn so if it does rely on someone choosing the frame, the rest should then be instantly done.
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The purpose and the role of offside in the rules of football was never such as to require decisions to be based on the width of a toenail. I'd scrap VAR tomorrow, if it were possible.
How do you feel about SAOT?
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It's not about us but the game as a whole and watching is now a much poorer experience.
It's just another level of human error, rank incompetence and bias.
Apology after apology to clubs, inconsitancies are as, if not more, common now as they were prior to It's introduction. Cursary checks for some infringements, forensic analysis for others, we see the offside lines when it suits them, never hear the conversations and as we saw at Old Trafford, if they want to rule out a goal they'll fucking find a way to do it.
If automated offside is a factual system, like goaline tech then great, otherwise it's subjective, just as refs decision is.
Perhaps we could have a VAR to check the VAR?
Hi Nev SAOT will be coming in next season and Howard Webb said this
Howard Webb PGMOL Chief Refereeing Officer, on the impact of SAOT
"It will make us quicker in a lot of situations involving tight offsides. Our defenders are really skilful at stepping up at the right time to play people offside, but also attackers are skilled at timing their runs as well. So we do have a lot of really tight offside situations in the Premier League.
"The assistants are also very good at making judgments in real-time, but, of course, they still need to be checked by the VAR and often players are leaning and there's maybe distance between the defenders and the attackers.
"So, at the moment we're using software, dropping lines from players' body positions, which takes time to do in a diligent way. Semi-automated offsides will speed that process up. There are still going to be some situations when there's a lot of players in close proximity, where we'll have to go through the existing system, if you like.
"But in many, many cases it [SAOT] will speed up the offside process because we won't have to place those lines. It'll be done for us by the software. So we are looking forward to making use of that to speed the game up."
"Semi-automated suggests to us where the offside line is, but we still have to check the kick point - make sure the computer selected the right one, make sure it's selected the right players, because we have to recognise who is the ... the defender that we're interested in, make sure it's identified the right players. And it's just like a validation really, of what the computer is suggesting to us.
"There's no indication [from SAOT] to the on-field officials as yet as to whether or not a player's offside. That might be something that comes down the track, where they get some information in real-time, which will prevent the delaying of flags. But that's some way off.
"But we're keeping a really close eye on anything that makes us more accurate, more efficient, and that benefits the game in a way that we think the VAR has overall in the last four to five years."
I hope that helps for clarity
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Premier League to bring in AI-powered camera system to speed up VAR process
The Premier League is poised to unveil a revolutionary new version of the video assistant referee system using semi-automatic offside technology (SAOT) which, it claims, will produce the best officiating setup in the world.
The AI-powered system has been developed by the technology company Genius Sports, which will install 28 computer vision cameras at every Premier League ground. The company is confident it can deliver VAR verdicts within seconds and shave minutes off top-flight matches.
After a competitive bidding process, Genius Sports is understood to have beaten the Premier League’s existing data partner Hawk-Eye to win the SAOT contract. During testing held at several Premier League and Champions League games last season the SAOT operated by match officials delivered decisions in a matter of seconds, leading Genius to claim the average waiting time can be reduced to around 30sec.
The computer vision cameras capture 10,000 surface data points for each player and the ball, enabling Genius to instantly create so-called “offside walls” for the VAR and match officials, with its 3D player graphics also to be made available for TV viewers. While the details have yet to be agreed, the detailed player graphics showing clear offside lines could also be shown in stadiums, which would significantly improve the match-day experience for fans.
The Premier League claims collecting billions of data points will give it the most sophisticated officiating system in sport, providing unparalleled precision in every offside decision.
The new system will not be used until after the international break next month, as it will take time to install the cameras and other technology in grounds. Hawk-Eye will continue to operate goalline technology in the Premier League for at least one more season, with its contract expiring next summer.
Source The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/aug/13/premier-league-to-introduce-revolutionary-camera-system-to-aid-var-process
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I will point out the obvious that offsides are absolute with the only "subjective" bit on if an offside player who didn't touch the ball but was interfering with if near the keeper.
I know what you are saying, but before VAR, there was a widely-accepted degree of subjectivity regarding offside where you would regularly hear the phrase "he's about level" from pundits and fans. There were no big toes offside.
Offsides can never "absolute" until they can say for certain when the ball leaves the passing players boot. The semi-automated system was supposed to address that problem but of course it's not ready yet thanks to the plonkers in charge. No doubt it will be implemented just in time to be used in favour of the red shite.
I think with the new AI tech and cameras it will be as accurate and correct as possible when it comes to judging if a player is either off or on.
Can only be offside or onside there is no in between
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So 3 matches played and it is clear intention not to play a high line. Or certainly not implemented nearly as much a last season . I'm sure I'm not the only to have noticed its completely different now how we are defending the line and space to last season.
Emery has played low block defence and looked at playing less of a high line is this in part because of the soon to be introduction of SAOT? Or is it a case of easing into season or deciding it's unsustainable to play a high line ?
SAOT is going to be far more effective system to judging offside and won't see the two lines of blue and either green or red being manually placed across an image of the pitch, SAOT imposes a virtual vertical curtain showing exactly which part of the player’s body is offside.
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There's been no further news on the introduction of SAOT to the Prem.
It anticipated that it would be after one of the international breaks so it's looking more likely October than from this weekend unless it's announced in next few days.
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Yes, the Premier League will introduce Semi-Automated Offside Technology (SAOT) during the 2024/25 season. This technology is expected to be implemented after one of the autumn international breaks, likely around September or October 2024. SAOT, which has already been used in UEFA tournaments and the World Cup, will enhance the accuracy and speed of offside decisions by using optical tracking to automatically generate offside lines.
The system will help speed up decisions compared to the current VAR process, as it automates much of the line drawing required to check offside positions. However, match officials will still validate critical moments like the kick point and player identification. This is seen as a step toward improving the efficiency and transparency of officiating in the Premier League.
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From world soccer:
The much-anticipated Premier League semi-automated offside technology is facing a delay with its introduction now likely to be pushed back to 2025.
The system promises faster and more accurate offside decisions. However, despite unanimous approval by clubs in April, it will not be ready for deployment this year as originally planned. The technology had been expected to roll out after one of the upcoming autumn international breaks. Nonetheless, ongoing trials have postponed its launch.
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The much-anticipated Premier League semi-automated offside technology is facing a delay with its introduction now likely to be pushed back to 2025.
The system promises faster and more accurate offside decisions. However, despite unanimous approval by clubs in April, it will not be ready for deployment this year as originally planned. The technology had been expected to roll out after one of the upcoming autumn international breaks. Nonetheless, ongoing trials have postponed its launch.
When you lift quotes from other places you are obliged to credit where you've got it from for copyright reasons.
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The much-anticipated Premier League semi-automated offside technology is facing a delay with its introduction now likely to be pushed back to 2025.
The system promises faster and more accurate offside decisions. However, despite unanimous approval by clubs in April, it will not be ready for deployment this year as originally planned. The technology had been expected to roll out after one of the upcoming autumn international breaks. Nonetheless, ongoing trials have postponed its launch.
When you lift quotes from other places you are obliged to credit where you've got it from for copyright reasons.
I added the source as I didn't realise. Thank you for pointing out.
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Well it's disappointing it's being delayed to possibility the new year. Chief sky sports report Kaveh Solhekol has been told it's the winter when SAOT is introduced but says the winter could even mean February!
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SAOT latest:
The league’s chief football officer, Tony Scholes, reported on Tuesday a reduction in officiating errors and a decrease in VAR delays in the English top flight
Scholes confirmed that the length of VAR delays had also come down from more than a minute per match in the 2023-24 season to 40 seconds. It is a reduction that has occurred without semi-automated offside technology (SOAT), which had been expected to be implemented before Christmas but has met with problems in testing.
Of SOAT
“We are making significant progress I have to confess given the difficulties that we had over the first few months of the season, I had severe doubts about this but we’ve made a lot of progress in this area now.
We believe we’re going to be adopting the best system and the most accurate system. I’m hopeful that at some point this season we will be able to introduce SAOT technology, but I repeat the point made a number of times: we are not going to introduce it if we’ve got any doubts at all with regard to its operation”
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Ridiculous it isn't in already. There's plenty of arguments against VAR, but if you're going to have it you might as well have the best available technology.
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And it’s like there’s deliberate bias of information to suggest it’s not need and everything is fine .
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Semi-automated offside technology (SAOT) is set to be trialled in the FA Cup fifth round next month with a view to it being introduced in the Premier League before the end of the season.
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Good.
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As you said, it's ridiculous it isn't in already.
Frankly anything would be better than the 4th round experience.
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I was looking for this in the VAR thread ...
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Finally can have discussion on this as SAOT will be at Villa Park tonight:
Semi-automated offside technology (SAOT) will be used for the first time in English football in the fifth round of the 2024-25 Emirates FA Cup – in the seven ties where Premier League sides have been drawn at home.
SAOT will provide more efficient placement of the virtual offside line, based on optical player tracking, and produce virtual graphics to ensure an enhanced in-stadium and broadcast experience for supporters. The operation of semi-automated offside technology does not change the accuracy of the decision making but enhances the speed, efficiency and consistency of the process.
https://www.thefa.com/news/2025/feb/27/emirates-fa-cup-semi-automated-offside-explainer-20252702
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I think it does actually change the accuracy of the offside decision in an improvement
But it's not to report it in that way as to not admit flaws and deficiencies.
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I was looking for this in the VAR thread ...
this is not a general VAR but this is SAOT and a dedicated thread for it's discussion granted their may be some overlap.
There explanation above posts regards what is being implemented.
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The operation of semi-automated offside technology does not change the accuracy of the decision making but enhances the speed, efficiency and consistency of the process.
Pointless then.
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The operation of semi-automated offside technology does not change the accuracy of the decision making but enhances the speed, efficiency and consistency of the process.
Pointless then.
if it doesn't improve the "accuracy" how is it improving the "consistency"? Surely the one is the same as the other here - it is either consistently accurate or it is not at the moment?
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If it stops some tosser from deciding which frame to use and then faffing about drawing a line on the screen, it's got to be a move forward.
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The operation of semi-automated offside technology does not change the accuracy of the decision making but enhances the speed, efficiency and consistency of the process.
Pointless then.
if it doesn't improve the "accuracy" how is it improving the "consistency"? Surely the one is the same as the other here - it is either consistently accurate or it is not at the moment?
I think it does actually change the accuracy of the offside decision in an improvement
But it's not to report it in that way as to not admit flaws and deficiencies.
Well as i say the narrative of reporting suggesting it doesn't improve accuracy is to play down the power of the technology as the previous system not only took too long at times the drawing and implementation of red and blue lines flawed
The organisation running the league don’t admit that here but SAOT is far superior all round
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If it stops some tosser from deciding which frame to use and then faffing about drawing a line on the screen, it's got to be a move forward.
In theory it doesn't as it is still using the frames available from the footage. The difference is it detects most of the extremities instantly and puts up the lines using 3d models, then the VAR person checks and changes manually if needed/ wanted.
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If it stops some tosser from deciding which frame to use and then faffing about drawing a line on the screen, it's got to be a move forward.
Well yes (minus the bawdy language) spot on
And any ready admission by league that their officials are failing the game and there is a better system - i.e. tech that will do their job is their main concern
Still having to wait in the Premier League though for it to come in but good to see it tonight for Villa game in the cup
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Guaranteed that given half a chance PGMOL and their Stockley Park clownshow will screw up SAOT, and us with it.
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Footballs referees across all leagues and countries that are on tv regardless of the technology are absolutley not upto a good enough standard
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if it doesn't improve the "accuracy" how is it improving the "consistency"? Surely the one is the same as the other here - it is either consistently accurate or it is not at the moment?
It means that they will be able to avoid the occasional mistakes when Liverpool or ManUre are not given the benefit of the doubt.
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I’m not convinced Watkins was offside the other day and i think this system would have had him onside and Rogers goal would have stood.
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SAOT will be implemented at Premier League grounds after this international break.
So for last 9 matches finally here!
Wondered if planned to do this all along for the business end of the season and the big decisions in crucial matches.
And that majority of season they disregarded it so the officials could have their influence. Something is strange with the timing.
There will still be human input as the VAR still needs to confirm the decision and that the SAOT system has accurately identified the "kick-point" and the correct players with the correct part of the body – and the outcome of the SAOT.
VAR will also need to determine whether the referee needs to conduct an on-field review for "subjective" offside calls – such as cases where deliberate play by a defender needs to be considered, or where an attacking player doesn’t touch the ball but could be interfering with an opponent while in an offside position
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I'm for this on the assumption that natural bias towards the bigger teams can be taken out.
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Wondered if planned to do this all along for the business end of the season and the big decisions in crucial matches.
And that majority of season they disregarded it so the officials could have their influence. Something is strange with the timing.
Or the extra cameras needed had to be tested at the grounds during different weather and lighting conditions with the system running in the background and being tweaked. And now they are ready to do live usage ready for next season proper.
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From Aston Villa Statto on X:
Semi-automated offside technology will be in place for the three FA Cup quarter-finals taking place at Premier League stadiums, as well as the semi-finals and final at Wembley Stadium connected by EE.
PNE vs #AVFC will be the only fixture not to use Semi-automated offside.
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About 5 or so years ago Wenger was pushing for offside changes.
Wenger's "daylight" rule proposed that an attacker would be onside if any part of their body, from which they can score, is level with the last defender, meaning there must be a visible gap between the attacker and defender for an offside offense to occur.
So players will only be flagged offside where their entire body, is ahead of the last defender.
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Oh, but how will we judge this if it's close?
I know! We'll draw some lines...
Twats!!
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Now this is pure folly! The SAOT is talk of being delayed again in the Premier League!
Headline and article Guardian:
Premier League delays use of new offside technology after record VAR hold-up
Semi-automated offside technology failed in FA Cup
FA will continue to use it, including in Cup final
The Premier League has further delayed the introduction of semi-automated offside technology (SAOT) after the record eight-minute video assistant referee check in the FA Cup fifth-round tie between Bournemouth and Wolves.
The technology, which was trialled for the first time in English football in seven of the eight fifth-round ties, failed at the Vitality Stadium owing to what sources described as a “congested penalty area”. This led to an unprecedented wait while the video assistant referee, Timothy Wood, made three checks before the Bournemouth defender Milos Kerkez’s first-half goal was disallowed for offside.
Plans to introduce SAOT in the Premier League after the international break have been put back as a result. The FA has confirmed it will hold another trial in three of the FA Cup quarter-finals and continue to use it in the semi-finals and final. Preston have been drawn at home against Aston Villa in the quarter-finals and, as a Championship club, do not have the capacity to operate the system.
Premier League sources indicated they would like to implement SAOT this season, but that would need the support of the clubs. The earliest it could be introduced is the weekend of 5-6 April, although some clubs are questioning whether a significant change should be brought in with eight games remaining.
The clubs voted unanimously to introduce SAOT last April and it was scheduled to be brought in last October but in-stadium testing revealed problems with its accuracy that were not resolved until last month.
The Premier League’s chief football officer, Tony Scholes, admitted to having “severe doubts” over the viability of SAOT last month and a number of concerns remain. Given the controversy surrounding VAR there is some reluctance at the league to invite more criticism.
It has been claimed that SAOT reduces the waiting time for decisions to 30 seconds because the lines are drawn automatically, so there was some embarrassment that one of the first trials should lead to the longest VAR check in English football.
The FA had warned before the trial that marginal offside decisions in crowded goalmouths could prove too tight for the new technology to detect. At Bournemouth, after the all-clear regarding a possible handball, an offside check began but SAOT did not work. As frustration mounted over the delay, home fans sang “It’s not football any more” and “This is embarrassing”, and Wolves supporters did not celebrate when the goal was disallowed.
The delay was more than two minutes longer than the previous record VAR check, which was five minutes and 37 seconds during a Premier League game between West Ham and Aston Villa last year.
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I think it’s being deliberately sabotaged to prevent it coming in.
Have to baulk at this complete and utter failure of the officials operating things.
The tech is fine.
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You've no idea.
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In the Premier League from 12th April. FV will be pleased. We are at Southampton that day.
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In the Premier League from 12th April. FV will be pleased. We are at Southampton that day.
Excellent news CB thanks for providing the news.
Further more :
The technology maintains the integrity of the process while enhancing the speed, efficiency, and consistency of offside decision-making.
The Premier League has worked in collaboration with PGMOL and sports data and technology company Genius Sports to develop the new semi-automated offside technology system.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/czrvvvpldeyo
In Premier League starting this weekend.