Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Smirker on August 31, 2023, 12:43:39 AM

Title: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smirker on August 31, 2023, 12:43:39 AM
I recently posted in one of the match threads that if Ollie could sort his finishing out, he'd be a £50m+ player. Some people pointe doubt that he already is worth that and it got me thinking.

If you were to place a value on our players, what do you think wiuod be reasonable amounts?

For me:

Martínez - £100m

Cash - £25m
Konsa - £20m
Mings - £20m
Torres - £30m
Carlos - £20m
Digne - £15m
Moreno - £30m
Chambers - £10m

McGinn - £35m
Douglas - £50m
Tielemens - £30m
Ramsey - £50m
Diaby - £60m
Buendia - £40m
Coutinho - £20m
Bailey - £20m
Traore - £15m
Dendoncker - £10m

Watkins - £35m
Duran - £15m

I think these are reasonable. Discuss, ridicule, tell me I'm clueless. Up to you  8)
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: PeterWithesShin on August 31, 2023, 12:48:20 AM
If you could buy Watkins for £35m we'd be getting calls from half the clubs in Europe.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on August 31, 2023, 01:11:12 AM
Is this click-bait? 😉
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: nordenvillain on August 31, 2023, 01:12:45 AM
If you could buy Watkins for £35m we'd be getting calls from half the clubs in Europe.
Same goes for McGinn and Mings (When he's fit again)
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smirker on August 31, 2023, 01:15:11 AM
If you could buy Watkins for £35m we'd be getting calls from half the clubs in Europe.

I'm not saying we'd sell for that but it's about right imo. If he wasn't our player and we were bidding that's what I'd say would be a fair amount. Obviously the value is affected by how much the club wants to sell.

I don't think he's worth much more than that really.



Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: danno on August 31, 2023, 01:17:15 AM
So, Coutinho a year older is worth more now than when we bought him?!
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smirker on August 31, 2023, 01:18:38 AM
So, Coutinho a year older is worth more now than when we bought him?!

Yes.

He was 'worth' more than what we bought him for. Barca were just in dire straits and needed him gone.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Toronto Villa on August 31, 2023, 01:31:33 AM
Why is Torres worth less than when we bought him? Bloody hell, that would be dream to get those at those prices. I’d add at least £200m on to whatever that adds up to.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smirker on August 31, 2023, 01:57:01 AM
Why is Torres worth less than when we bought him? Bloody hell, that would be dream to get those at those prices. I’d add at least £200m on to whatever that adds up to.

I couldn't be arsed to check the fee. It was about 30m so I put that.

What would you value our players at?
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Percy McCarthy on August 31, 2023, 02:01:51 AM
I think you need to check out what other players are going for and have a re-think. And you’ve missed Kamara (£100m).
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Toronto Villa on August 31, 2023, 02:07:36 AM
Why is Torres worth less than when we bought him? Bloody hell, that would be dream to get those at I those prices. I’d add at least £200m on to whatever that adds up to.

I couldn't be arsed to check the fee. It was about 30m so I put that.

What would you value our players at?

Well when you look at some the untested kids being signed by Chelsea and Newcastle, or some of the dross transfer between clubs I think our players, playing at a high level and good age need to be priced accordingly. I’ll take a stab. Agree with some of yours. I’ve added in the English “tax” also which overvalues English players.

Martínez - £100m

Cash - £35m
Konsa - £40m
Mings - £30m
Torres - £50m
Carlos - £40m
Digne - £35m
Moreno - £30m
Chambers - £10m

McGinn - £50m
Douglas - £75m
Tielemens - £40m
Ramsey - £70m
Diaby - £60m
Buendia - £50m
Coutinho - £10m
Bailey - £40m
Traore - £15m
Dendoncker - £10m

Watkins - £65m
Duran - £25m
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: KevinGage on August 31, 2023, 02:25:32 AM
In a world where 20 year old Livramento goes to Newcastle from Southampton for close to £40 million (despite being injured for most of his time at Soton) Matty Cash must be worth at least £50 million.

Adjust all other values accordingly.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Toronto Villa on August 31, 2023, 02:30:53 AM
Yep. I probably undervalued a few of our lads. That lad from Wolves is going to Man City for about £50m having done fuck all compared to Ollie. So I probably need to add at least £10m to him  also.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Percy McCarthy on August 31, 2023, 03:00:40 AM
That’s two of you who’ve missed Kamara (£100m).

Maybe I’m overvaluing him if no-one’s noticing him play.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smirker on August 31, 2023, 03:08:16 AM
I think you need to check out what other players are going for and have a re-think. And you’ve missed Kamara (£100m).

I'm not using other players as benchmarks. Plenty have gone for crazy money that was way too much for what they were getting, doesn't mean everyone else should be valued compared to that, just cos for example Maguire cost £80m doesn't mean it wasn't ridiculous and that Mings should be £60m. You could also use examples of shrewd buys to argue the other way for example Mac Allister to Liverpool for £35m.

Kamara - £40m
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Toronto Villa on August 31, 2023, 04:28:49 AM
Kamara £40m? That gets 1/2 of him.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: ChicagoLion on August 31, 2023, 04:35:01 AM
TV has Watkins £65 million
Smirker £35 million.
We would snatch your hand off at  £65m and everybody would at£35m.
Shows how subjective this stuff is.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Dave on August 31, 2023, 06:20:01 AM
If you could buy Watkins for £35m we'd be getting calls from half the clubs in Europe.

I'm not saying we'd sell for that but it's about right imo. If he wasn't our player and we were bidding that's what I'd say would be a fair amount. .

We paid £28m with £5m of potential add-ons (which one would assume we'll pay / have paid considering how well he's done) for a striker with one outstanding season in the Championship.

It's unlikely that forty Premier League goals later and being good enough to start for arguably all but one team in the league has added £2m to that value.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: algy on August 31, 2023, 06:20:13 AM
I think you need to check out what other players are going for and have a re-think. And you’ve missed Kamara (£100m).

I'm not using other players as benchmarks. Plenty have gone for crazy money that was way too much for what they were getting, doesn't mean everyone else should be valued compared to that, just cos for example Maguire cost £80m doesn't mean it wasn't ridiculous and that Mings should be £60m. You could also use examples of shrewd buys to argue the other way for example Mac Allister to Liverpool for £35m.

Kamara - £40m
I tend to agree with Smirker here - one or two players might go for over the odds, but you're not selling a whole squad on inflated prices, generally they're going to be in the boring range of ... well, the sort of prices we'd pay for those players.

Anyway, I'd go with...

Martínez - £100m

Cash - £30m
Konsa - £25m
Mings - £25m
Torres - £35m
Carlos - £20m
Digne - £15m
Moreno - £25m

Chambers - £1m

McGinn - £40m
Douglas - £50m
Kamara - £40m
Tielemens - £20m
Ramsey - £50m
Diaby - £55m
Buendia - £30m
Coutinho - £5m
Bailey - £20m
Traore - £5m
Dendoncker - £10m

Watkins - £60m
Duran - £15m

.. Something that. Not that I think we would/should sell them at those prices, but if we were in a situation where we were actively trying to sell them (as oppose to them bring the centre of a bidding war) I'd guess that might be about where they were.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Drummond on August 31, 2023, 07:30:43 AM
You can have the lot for a billion quid.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Goldenballs on August 31, 2023, 07:43:41 AM
I'd agree with the lower values, nobody is going to come in and spend big money of Digne given his age and wages. Can't see anyone offering much for Carlos given his age, lack of game time and recent injury. When Mings is back he'll be 31 on a back of a bad injury.

We'd never get our money back on Buendia or Bailey either, I'd say £25m for Emi and £20m for Bailey we'd be doing well.

The trouble with spending big money in the Premier league is that there are very few teams who will also be willing to spend the same, other than the teams above or around us, and none of them are going to want Bailey for £40m
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: ozzjim on August 31, 2023, 08:21:43 AM
I'd agree with the lower values, nobody is going to come in and spend big money of Digne given his age and wages. Can't see anyone offering much for Carlos given his age, lack of game time and recent injury. When Mings is back he'll be 31 on a back of a bad injury.

We'd never get our money back on Buendia or Bailey either, I'd say £25m for Emi and £20m for Bailey we'd be doing well.

The trouble with spending big money in the Premier league is that there are very few teams who will also be willing to spend the same, other than the teams above or around us, and none of them are going to want Bailey for £40m

We would get £35-40 for Emi in the market now. The rest I agree. We have to think about what they are worth to us though, as well as what someone would pay.

I think Algy has it close, but I don't reckon we get less than £80m for Luiz or Kamara, and Diaby is £75m already at his age.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Dante Lavelli on August 31, 2023, 08:27:26 AM
That’s a good point goldenballs. Once a player makes the move to the PL the number of clubs that could buy him, unless on sale, reduces significantly. Less demand, lower prices.

In a weird way, this justifies occasionally flogging a good-un when a PL comes knocking and also the approach with archer etc because our commercial income alone is not enough to compete at the top.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: paul_e on August 31, 2023, 08:38:44 AM
I think trying to define the value of players is far too messy to just create an arbitrary list like this, every player has 2/3 different values and they can vary wildly and they lead to most of the disagreements.

People valuing Martinez at £100m are doing so on his value to us but that isn't what anyone would be willing to pay for him, which is a big part of why we haven't had any bids, those numbers are just too far apart. The other possible valuation is if there is something in contract clauses which is a big unknown.

Aside from that you get the weird valuations of players like Coutinho, £10m might be correct if we wanted to sell him to a European team but the rise in spending with Saudi and Qatari teams means we might be able to get far more, we're in a world where Liverpool got over £50m for Henderson and Fabinho, so £20-25m doesn't seem unreasonable. This is true for a few others as well.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Risso on August 31, 2023, 08:43:45 AM
I think big European teams would be prepared to pay £100m for Martinez, there just aren't any that need a keeper that badly right now.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Risso on August 31, 2023, 08:45:13 AM
Oh and two people above have valued Konsa at £20m and £25m. Blimey, tell me where you're going to get a player half as good as him for that? He's worth £50m+ all day long.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Olneythelonely on August 31, 2023, 08:56:45 AM
Fuck me. This is more mental than Liz Truss’ budget.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: charleeco7 on August 31, 2023, 09:00:50 AM
You’ve pretty much undervalued 90% of the squad and you do have to take into account the cost other players are going for as that’s how the market works.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: paul_e on August 31, 2023, 09:02:04 AM
I think big European teams would be prepared to pay £100m for Martinez, there just aren't any that need a keeper that badly right now.

Well yeah, so no one is currently willing to pay £100m for him.

We can use Doug as the example instead. On here we all believe he's at least on a par with Rice and Caicedo so will rate him accordingly but I doubt anyone who needs a player like him could afford that right now. This is how it will always be when it comes to players being sold who their club want to keep.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Risso on August 31, 2023, 09:09:58 AM
They'd be willing to pay it if they needed a keeper of his ability.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: paul_e on August 31, 2023, 09:17:40 AM
They'd be willing to pay it if they needed a keeper of his ability.

but they don't, so they aren't. I'm not sure how you're struggling with this idea.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Risso on August 31, 2023, 09:28:07 AM
They'd be willing to pay it if they needed a keeper of his ability.

but they don't, so they aren't. I'm not sure how you're struggling with this idea.

I'd love to be as clever and all-knowing as you Paul, I really would. But the thread title is about hypothetical values (the clue is in the title), which implies the value we'd put on them IF people wanted to buy them. If it's not that, then all you're left with is the book value in the accounts, which is largely meaningless, as it would make Kamara worth nothing for example. We haven't to my knowledge, had any bids for our recognised first team starters like McGinn, Martinez, Luiz or Watkins. Does that mean they're not worth say, £50m, £100m, £75m or £60m respectively IF people wanted to buy them?
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: lovejoy on August 31, 2023, 09:44:24 AM
Isn't the transfer value dependent on contract conditions, specifically how long there is to go?
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: ChicagoLion on August 31, 2023, 09:45:51 AM
Isn't the transfer value dependent on contract conditions, specifically how long there is to go?
yes amongst other things.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Risso on August 31, 2023, 09:45:59 AM
Isn't the transfer value dependent on contract conditions, specifically how long there is to go?

Partially, yes. But we seem quite good at extending contracts at the right time.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: paul_e on August 31, 2023, 09:56:41 AM
They'd be willing to pay it if they needed a keeper of his ability.

but they don't, so they aren't. I'm not sure how you're struggling with this idea.

I'd love to be as clever and all-knowing as you Paul, I really would. But the thread title is about hypothetical values (the clue is in the title), which implies the value we'd put on them IF people wanted to buy them. If it's not that, then all you're left with is the book value in the accounts, which is largely meaningless, as it would make Kamara worth nothing for example. We haven't to my knowledge, had any bids for our recognised first team starters like McGinn, Martinez, Luiz or Watkins. Does that mean they're not worth say, £50m, £100m, £75m or £60m respectively IF people wanted to buy them?

No, they can be worth that to us but not worth it to other clubs, that's literally the point I made that you decided to argue with. Those figures might well be our asking prices but if no one is willing to pay and we don't want to sell then they're pretty meaningless.

My point was that some people will be listing prices like yours which are the sort of fees that we'd probably take even if we didn't want to sell and the player wasn't pushing to leave, in the vast majority of cases these will be values that no one would offer us, which is exactly the point of them, if you want to take our best players then you pay over the odds or you fuck off, we don't want to sell.

Other people are trying to be 'realistic' and give the sort of fees that they expect other clubs would be willing to pay, the vast majority of these are well below what it would take for us to actually think it was worth doing business so why would we, even if the player was keen (for example Luiz last summer).

Neither is a particularly realistic valuation, which is why I think the whole concept of creating a list like this is too messy.

Now it may be that Ederson breaks both legs in a freak accident tis afternoon and Man City suddenly do decide £100m is worth spending on a replacement or that Luiz calls Emery a twat in training and we decided to sell him for whatever we can get but both are extremes that are highly unlikely and are the only way those upper and lower estimates become particularly relevant.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Monty on August 31, 2023, 09:59:04 AM
The 'value' obviously would be the agreed upon selling price, which is to say the minimum price at which we'd agree to sell. Which, for almost all the examples dear old Smirk has given, is much higher than we appreciate - McGinn, for instance, would probably be incredibly expensive for a 28 year old midfielder.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: paul_e on August 31, 2023, 10:00:28 AM
Isn't the transfer value dependent on contract conditions, specifically how long there is to go?

Sale value of anything is dependant on what someone is willing to accept and what someone is willing to pay. In context the amount of time on the players contract is one part of determining the figures on either side. Alongside that is how keen the team is to buy, how willing the other team is to sell, how old the player is, how much the player wants to go, how easy it would be to replace him and many other reasons.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: chrisw1 on August 31, 2023, 10:08:33 AM
In a world where 20 year old Livramento goes to Newcastle from Southampton for close to £40 million (despite being injured for most of his time at Soton) Matty Cash must be worth at least £50 million.

Adjust all other values accordingly.
One transfer doesn't dictate a market.  You're also dismissing the hope value of a young player developing into something special.  Cash's ability is well known and at a level where many of our fan base wanted him replaced until he scored his brace at the weekend.

Whatever Cash is worth, it has no correlation at all to the Livramento transfer.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: chrisw1 on August 31, 2023, 10:11:22 AM
Isn't the transfer value dependent on contract conditions, specifically how long there is to go?

Sale value of anything is dependant on what someone is willing to accept and what someone is willing to pay. In context the amount of time on the players contract is one part of determining the figures on either side. Alongside that is how keen the team is to buy, how willing the other team is to sell, how old the player is, how much the player wants to go, how easy it would be to replace him and many other reasons.
But it becomes a pointless discussion if you now try and factor in every teams requirements world wide before having a fun stab at a value.  For a hypothetical value it would be easiest if we were to assume a willing buyer and seller (acting reasonably) in each instance.

Also, the exercise only really works if you assume there's a decent amount of time on their contract left.  Watkins value will probably being to fall now.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: chrisw1 on August 31, 2023, 10:17:59 AM
My stab would be as follows, based on current circumstances and contracts and excluding Saudi premiums

Martínez - £100m

Cash - £25m
Konsa - £35m
Mings - £10m (if injury free then £40m)
Torres - £40m
Carlos - £15m
Digne - £15m
Moreno - £20m
Chambers - £0m

McGinn - £55m
Douglas - £90m
Kamara - £65m
Tielemens - £30m
Ramsey - £40m
Diaby - £60m
Buendia - £20m
Coutinho - £0m
Bailey - £20m
Traore - £0m
Dendoncker - £5m

Watkins - £50m (due to short contract)
Duran - £15m
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: cannock villa on August 31, 2023, 10:38:36 AM
Who's done these valuations, Daniel Levy
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Toronto Villa on August 31, 2023, 11:46:07 AM
Value ultimately has two meanings. What the buyer values a player at and the seller. Jack Grealish wasn’t a £100m player based on other players who had been sold before him at set the precedent. However, he was to us and ultimately was to Man City. But if Spurs had been the prospective buyer, then they’d have valued him much lower and he’d still be with us. The market and willingness to buy or sell sets pricing. If a PL club came in for Douglas Luiz today, he’s closer to £100m than not just based on similar players who’ve recently been bought. Kamara, especially given his age might be the same. I don’t what is so special about Caicedo that we don’t have in Kamara.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on August 31, 2023, 12:08:29 PM
I need to go out in a minute so rather than argue the toss, here are my prices if we were to sell.

Martínez - £100m

Cash - £40m
Konsa - £45m
Mings - £55m
Torres - £50m
Carlos - £45m
Digne - £35m
Moreno - £35m
Chambers - £15m

McGinn - £75m
Douglas - £90m
Kamara - £80m
Tielemens - £50m
Ramsey - £85m
Diaby - £70m
Buendia - £50m
Coutinho - £25m
Bailey - £30m
Traore - £15m
Dendoncker - £25m

Watkins - £70m (with new contract signed)
Duran - £20m

Any offers need to be in by midday on the 31st of August.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: ChicagoLion on August 31, 2023, 01:20:18 PM
I would love to sell at your prices and buy at mine.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Dante Lavelli on August 31, 2023, 01:45:18 PM
I’m not sure Diaby has increased in value. Hasn’t his form just justified the already high price we paid a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: paul_e on August 31, 2023, 01:52:11 PM
I’m not sure Diaby has increased in value. Hasn’t his form just justified the already high price we paid a few weeks ago.

but we also wouldn't sell him on with no price increase so £70m looks about right to actually get us to sell. For what it's worth I think most of rudy's values are about right for what it would take to make us think about selling, which is the more important valuation for me, what others teams would consider a fair value is a lot less interesting.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: chrisw1 on August 31, 2023, 01:58:49 PM
Yeah I agree with that.  Today's sale price to us is very different to what we think a fair market value may be on a more objective basis.  As at today's date the only players I'd contemplate letting go would be Coutinho and Traore. 

Personally I'd be disappointed if we accepted £125m for Doug right now even though id put his value at closer to £90m
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on August 31, 2023, 01:59:17 PM
I don't quite understand though how anyone can value Luiz under £70m? That doesn't make sense to me by any metric.

Edit: I double thoughed. Tit.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: chrisw1 on August 31, 2023, 02:16:04 PM
I don't quite understand though how anyone can value Luiz under £70m though? That doesn't make sense to me by any metric.
No absolutely not.  He's an excellent player.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Mister E on August 31, 2023, 03:56:49 PM
I'm not using other players as benchmarks.
But that's the way markets go, and it has been pumped up further by the Arab-interests.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Mister E on August 31, 2023, 03:58:45 PM
... and valuing them accurately would also require an understanding of the remaining time on their contracts.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on August 31, 2023, 05:53:39 PM
I don't quite understand though how anyone can value Luiz under £70m though? That doesn't make sense to me by any metric.
No absolutely not.  He's an excellent player.

He's still young, turned 25 in May, just signed a long contract and it's just a matter of time before he becomes a regular in the Brazil team. It's not a question of if but when. He's the Muhammad Ali of central midfielders. Floats like a butterfly.. such a joy to watch him perform.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Footy-Vill on October 23, 2023, 01:35:43 PM
Value of players:

Martínez - £125m
Cash - £50m
Konsa - £50m
Torres - £60m
Kamara- £70m
McGinn - £70m
Douglas - £85m
Ramsey - £75m
Diaby - £75m
Bailey - £50m
Watkins - £100m
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Monty on October 23, 2023, 02:08:10 PM
Cash is not worth 50m, and Konsa is worth much much more than him. Love Matt, but let's be real.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Bully2345 on October 23, 2023, 02:09:53 PM
They're worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for them
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Drummond on October 23, 2023, 02:10:13 PM
I hoped this thread had died of natural causes.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Dave P on October 23, 2023, 03:50:58 PM
I hoped this thread had died of natural causes.

You should know by now that no thread can ever die unless the source of the resurrection is taken out.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Footy-Vill on October 23, 2023, 03:57:17 PM
Cash is not worth 50m, and Konsa is worth much much more than him. Love Matt, but let's be real.
50m is standard fair for a Prem player of Cashy ilk. I thought 50m for Konsa was fair price
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Monty on October 23, 2023, 03:57:55 PM
Cash is not worth 50m, and Konsa is worth much much more than him. Love Matt, but let's be real.
50m is standard fair for a Prem player of Cashy ilk

Nope.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Risso on October 23, 2023, 04:03:54 PM
No, £125m for Luiz, minimum. He's the best player in the Premier League, never mind best midfielder.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: LeeB on October 23, 2023, 04:08:01 PM
Yeah Luiz is Rice money to get a polite decline, rather than a 'fuck right off'.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smirker on October 23, 2023, 04:30:55 PM
I hoped this thread had died of natural causes.

Rude! 😤
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Monty on October 23, 2023, 04:35:29 PM
Luiz is approaching the topmost of top levels. The two best no. 4 midfielders in the league (no NO I will NOT concede this) are Rice and Rodri; the best no. 8s (fine, that's fine) are De Bruyne (I guess he's not a 10?) and Szoboszlai; Doug is literally the best in-between midfield player in the league, the best shuttler and shuffler, a ball-retention machine, a press monster, and a gap-spotter rapidly approaching Sidesque levels. There's none quite like him, and he's virtually irreplaceable in our system.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smithy on October 23, 2023, 04:42:08 PM
No, £125m for Luiz, minimum. He's the best player in the Premier League, never mind best midfielder.

If someone wanted him, and we didn't want him to go, then I think it would take a British transfer record on current form.  Certainly more than Rice.  Obviously it's impossible for him to continue at his current ridiculous rate of goal-scoring, but his all-round game is so good right now that if it continues he'll easily be a Brazil starter and recognised as a £100m+ player in the next 12 months.

Enzo Fernandes went for £105m simply for being the third best midfielder in the Argentina team.  I literally wouldn't swap Dougie for anyone in the premier league right now.  There are better defensive midfielders, there are better pivots, and there are better attacking midfielders, but I don't believe there is one player who can do all three at his level.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smirker on October 23, 2023, 05:09:58 PM
I had thought he was £100+m but there is only so much aggressive comments I can take because expected people to shoot that down
Certainly better than Rice and it annoyed me how Guimarães and Paquetá get more plaudits.
 
I said  moons ago Dougie was bordering on world class .
I have hard evidence on such foresight.

 8)
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: LeeB on October 23, 2023, 05:12:22 PM
I had thought he was £100+m but there is only so much aggressive comments I can take because expected people to shoot that down
Certainly better than Rice and it annoyed me how Guimarães and Paquetá get more plaudits.
 
I said  moons ago Dougie was bordering on world class .
I have hard evidence on such foresight.

 8)


(https://i.ibb.co/Mc8HQT2/carryon.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mc8HQT2)
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Footy-Vill on October 23, 2023, 05:23:47 PM
I posted on Douglas Thread when I said on 1st Jan he was on the verge of being world class.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Monty on October 23, 2023, 05:27:45 PM
I posted on Douglas Thread when I said on 1st Jan he was on the verge of being world class.


Mate, we believe you. Others thought he was great too. Some others disagreed - oh well, they were right about other things! Litigating endlessly who got what right is not, in my opinion, the point of forums like this.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Risso on October 23, 2023, 05:35:02 PM
Jesus, give it a rest.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Smithy on October 23, 2023, 05:36:50 PM
I posted on Douglas Thread when I said on 1st Jan he was on the verge of being world class.


On the 17th August 2019 I posted that Dougie would be one of the best midfielders in the premier league after his "worldie" against Bournemouth. 

My foresight makes your foresight look like 20:20 hindsight.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Monty on October 23, 2023, 05:38:45 PM
Ok. Sorry. Just some people often try and poke fun about things I say or occasionally get wrong but never credit my foresight.
And certainly many have backed Douglas because he was the player of last season

The sole credit isn't just for me and my observations of course many can share seeing how good he has become.

Please take this as the friendly advice it is intended as - they're poking fun of your tendency to bring it up in exactly this manner. Sometimes you've had good insights, and that's grand! But the point is that so do other people, and that you also get things wrong and so do others, and that it's best not to go on about either.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Rory on October 23, 2023, 05:49:36 PM
I had thought he was £100+m but there is only so much aggressive comments I can take because expected people to shoot that down
Certainly better than Rice and it annoyed me how Guimarães and Paquetá get more plaudits.
 
I said  moons ago Dougie was bordering on world class .
I have hard evidence on such foresight.

 8)


(https://i.ibb.co/Mc8HQT2/carryon.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mc8HQT2)

Larf
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Mister E on October 23, 2023, 06:03:10 PM
Luiz is approaching the topmost of top levels. The two best no. 4 midfielders in the league (no NO I will NOT concede this) are Rice and Rodri; the best no. 8s (fine, that's fine) are De Bruyne (I guess he's not a 10?) and Szoboszlai; Doug is literally the best in-between midfield player in the league, the best shuttler and shuffler, a ball-retention machine, a press monster, and a gap-spotter rapidly approaching Sidesque levels. There's none quite like him, and he's virtually irreplaceable in our system.
I think you've summarised things well there.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Drummond on October 24, 2023, 02:09:18 PM
Jesus, give it a rest.
Ok sure.
was just about to give further hard evidence of foresight after I explained how Jon Duran would not be loaned out and was bought to be part of the first team this season. I said that ore season when some said he's going. Now again, there seem to be some suggestions that he's leaving Villa. Which are inaccurate.If it's not helpful to explain his current situation, then I won't, but he's not leaving Villa.

You don't need to prove anything. What irks people is that you consistently try to, and then claim foresight and insight etc. It doesn't matter, we're all right and wrong about stuff but don't need to claim that we're the best at it. If you're right, be happy that you're right, don't try and prove it and show everyone, because it doesn't really matter and nobody cares.

We all make our minds up about people based on what they post. Some make good points, or points that we agree with, others don't. People are smart enough on here (generally!) that they can understand when people make good points, when they disagree with someone, and when it's just rubbish.

Relax, post stuff, have an opinion, but you don't have to justify your existence and view by claiming to be better than anyone, because that becomes annoying and irritating.

Plus you'll realise soon enough that I am the all-seeing eye with the highest intelligence, better analysing skills and all round most decent chap on here.

Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: coreyfeldman on October 24, 2023, 02:12:54 PM
I can't help but read Footys posts out in the voice of the Stotts, makes them much more palatable.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Axl Begonia on October 25, 2023, 09:22:54 AM
Hi guys - first post here. Nice to be on board!

Just wished to comment that I wonder how these values have changed since Unai came in. I reckon you could add a considerable few million onto most of our players, and a lot onto Watkins, Dougie, Konsa, and probably a few more.

I have never really considered how much good (great maybe - just been informed by my gf that I watch too many videos of Emery) management can effect such a thing, and in a world of FFP, I think that this is a less frequently stated benefit of having a good manager in. I mean this probably a pretty general rule of how players are valued, but...

I think it is worth stating that Emery has come in and totally bumped up the value of this squad. Just by virtue of how competent he is.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Monty on October 25, 2023, 09:29:50 AM
Welcome Axl II, and I think you've made a shrewd point about FFP there. The most cost-effective way for a club to improve itself and its prospects is to never again appoint a hack, a charlatan or a waster. No more 'well he was a good midfielder in the 00s'. Appoint someone who actually works hard, who doesn't bullshit and who knows what they're doing.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 25, 2023, 09:38:21 AM
The working hard bit is also under estimated.

Not many managers succeed without putting in the hours. Clough is the only one I can think of. Ferguson, guardiola, wenger are/were known for putting in long hours. Bruce/MON not so much and the possibly explains why they plateaued as managers.
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: simboy on October 25, 2023, 10:13:15 AM
The working hard bit is also under estimated.

Not many managers succeed without putting in the hours. Clough is the only one I can think of. Ferguson, guardiola, wenger are/were known for putting in long hours. Bruce/MON not so much and the possibly explains why they plateaued as managers.


I think you underestimate Clough and his hard work. He was a well known workaholic [as well as alcoholic] from painting the stands and picking up litter at Hartlepool to making sure his club ran the way best geared to success, to sacking tea ladies for laughing because his lost on the weekend to getting out on the training ground developing tactics that were ahead of their time.

Only in the later years when the alcoholism really took a grip did he become a real caricature of himself.   
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: LeeB on October 25, 2023, 10:15:10 AM
Jesus, give it a rest.
Ok sure.
was just about to give further hard evidence of foresight after I explained how Jon Duran would not be loaned out and was bought to be part of the first team this season. I said that ore season when some said he's going. Now again, there seem to be some suggestions that he's leaving Villa. Which are inaccurate.If it's not helpful to explain his current situation, then I won't, but he's not leaving Villa.

You don't need to prove anything. What irks people is that you consistently try to, and then claim foresight and insight etc. It doesn't matter, we're all right and wrong about stuff but don't need to claim that we're the best at it. If you're right, be happy that you're right, don't try and prove it and show everyone, because it doesn't really matter and nobody cares.

We all make our minds up about people based on what they post. Some make good points, or points that we agree with, others don't. People are smart enough on here (generally!) that they can understand when people make good points, when they disagree with someone, and when it's just rubbish.

Relax, post stuff, have an opinion, but you don't have to justify your existence and view by claiming to be better than anyone, because that becomes annoying and irritating.

Plus you'll realise soon enough that I am the all-seeing eye with the highest intelligence, better analysing skills and all round most decent chap on here.



"All round" or "most round"?
Title: Re: Value of our players - hypothetical
Post by: Bad English on November 30, 2023, 10:18:23 PM
Hi guys
Welcome Axl!

"guys" FFS!

;-)
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