Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Villa Memories => Topic started by: Smirker on October 24, 2022, 11:01:43 PM
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Not sure if this deserves a thread but who cares.
How far away did winning the European Cup seem in the seasons leading up to it?
I ask because it feels all but impossible now. Can't say impossible but as close to that as you can get. Did it feel like that in the late 70s before things turned round?
I hope it did because then it will make me think one day we could see it again.
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We never thought we had a chance until we won the league, because it was what other clubs did. Then it was accepted, because it was what English clubs do. We didn't have that Villans nonsense either.
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The timing of this question with UE's appointment is scary :)
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I've been thinking about it for a while.
We never thought we had a chance until we won the league, because it was what other clubs did. Then it was accepted, because it was what English clubs do. We didn't have that Villans nonsense either.
Does it feel further away now than it did then (before winning the league/qualifying)?
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The prospect of winning the European Cup in the summer of 1981 seemed a lot more likely than winning the League did in the summer of 1980.
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Winning the European cup was not the big thing in them days. Winning the League was the big event second only to winning the FA cup. Once you were English champions winning the Champions cup was almost expected. Probably most of us dreamt of winning the European cup however we eulogised the FA cup day and night talked about winning it one day and sadly we still do.
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We were all much younger then and still believed in dreams coming true. At the start of every season I always felt we could win something, so I expect I had that feeling about the European Cup too, especially as we’d beaten and finished above the team that won it in 1981. And the team that had won it the two previous seasons.
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Our European adventures during the 70s started with Royal Antwerp giving us a lesson in slick football in 75 but by 77/78 we were holding our own reaching the quarter finals against Barca's Cruyff and Co. By 81 we were confident of our own ability but I don't think anybody thought we'd win the European Cup. What we knew was that it was going to take a very special team to beat us. As Dave said, there was that expectation due to English teams winning it but from memory it was more game by game, okay who's next until suddenly we're on the ferry to Rotterdam.
Even now, every time I watch the final again I'm still bricking it, stomach in knots, shortness of breath, just like I was back then at the game. I really think I was and still am traumatised from that night. Could I survive another European Final? Only if we won it.
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I never really believed until we beat Anderlecht - and even then when I saw Bayern had thrashed CSKA in the other semi (who’d knocked Liverpool out in the quarters) I was dubious.
My old man (a Blues fan) tried to send me to bed at half time as well - I almost never forgave him 😀
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I always remember a News of the World preview of the runners and riders before the first kick-off in our league winning season. They had us down as dark horses and as a 12 year old I remember thinking naah, too soon. But then we started winning. And winning. And then Bosko Balaban did his thing. But as much as I doubted we would win the league, I was absolutely certain we would win the European Cup the following year. At that time it was felt that English teams are always gonna win it, the First Division's stock was so high. Cloughie proved that anything was possible.
Can we win it again? Of course we can. We haven't won anything of note since 1996, have endured over 20 years of dross, watched both O'Neill and Gerrard squander guilt-edged opportunities, but it's Aston Villa were talking about. Every now and again we're capable of magic. The Grand Old Lady. And as a former son once said, 'Do you wanna bet against us?'
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I like this question. Being born in '89 and not really getting into football until I was about 10 (not sure why) the idea of winning the league seems completely impossible to me. When we won the league and having just looked the previous 3 seasons we finished 8th, 8th and 7th. Was you all thinking it would be impossible to win the league at the start of the next season? I can't imagine it feels as obscene an idea as doing it now though. I know Leicester happened but even since then it is worse.
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It was different back then. Liverpool dominated but lots of teams did well through good coaching. When we won the league in 81, Ipswich were 2nd and West Brom 4th. The following year Watford were 2nd. The year after that, Southampton were 2nd and QPR 5th, etc etc.
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It was different back then. Liverpool dominated but lots of teams did well through good coaching. When we won the league in 81, Ipswich were 2nd and West Brom 4th. The following year Watford were 2nd. The year after that, Southampton were 2nd and QPR 5th, etc etc.
Cheers for that, gives me perspective. I had no idea any of those teams got to those sort of heights. So West Brom were actually decent? Fuck. I mean I grew up around them but I just naturally tuned them out. Going to have to Google their history out of curiosity and then have a wash.
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Ipswich finished 3rd in 1980, 2nd in 81 and 2nd in 82. Albion had a very good side back then. QPR should probably have won the league in 1976. The likes of Wolves, Stoke, Swansea finished top 6.
We were pretty shit in 80/81, there was more talk of if we'd be relegated the year after winning the league than winning the European Cup. Apart from Valur, we were probably second favourites every tie.
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Football was just different* then. Top clubs didn't collect players. You could build a team without the fear that Despot Athletic would come and take them. Hardly any British players moved abroad, or vice versa, and much of the best of the home nations came to England. Domestically it was far more level. West Ham had a fine side in the late 70s early 80s. The equivalent for them in the current era was waving bye bye to Carrick, Cole and Lampard. That's the difference.
I was only a kid but I went into every game with the great uncertainty of we could win, might draw, could lose. Sides having a good season won a lot of home games. Sides having a blistering season also won a handful of away games. Nowadays if FC Squillionairre concede a corner it's a fckn crisis, and if you have anyone vaguely talented they "should move to a richer club". That's why drawing at home to Man City leads to hiring an open-top bus, and gives Pepsi an opportunity to decide if any of your players can provide much needed balance on his Zenith Data Systems Cup squad bench.
Also, British clubs were highly successful in European competition at that time. 70's and early 80's, Man City, Chelsea, Everton, Aberdeen, Rangers, Ipswich, Spurs all won European trophies to go with Villa, Forest and the other one. Leeds, Arsenal, West Ham, Wolves got to finals. So, truth is I probably didn't think we were definitely going to win it, but also had confidence that we could beat anyone on our day. As could a lot of very evenly matched, if technically 'variable', sides
* better
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It's all before my time but it has always grated on me, as a stats man, people treat our early 1980s successes as a sort of bolt out of the blue. From 1975 we were clearly on an upward trajectory winning two league cups and finishing 4th in the league. 1975-1983 saw us pick up two league cups, a league title, a European Cup and a European Super Cup. I always feel that our achievements in the 70s and 80s are overlooked compared to say Derby and Forest.
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It was different back then. Liverpool dominated but lots of teams did well through good coaching. When we won the league in 81, Ipswich were 2nd and West Brom 4th. The following year Watford were 2nd. The year after that, Southampton were 2nd and QPR 5th, etc etc.
Cheers for that, gives me perspective. I had no idea any of those teams got to those sort of heights. So West Brom were actually decent? Fuck. I mean I grew up around them but I just naturally tuned them out. Going to have to Google their history out of curiosity and then have a wash.
We beat West Brom at home in April 1981, there were probably 4 games remainingin the season.They matched us that night and probably deserved a point from the game but for one of my favourite Villa Park goals from Peter Withe after a terrible back pass from Brendan Batson. Up to then Albion were still in with a mathematical change of winning the league. It would have taken a dramatic loss of form from us and Ipswich but it was still possible.
They had a good side then but as always good overcomes evil!
Did I think we could win the European Cup? No, not until we got to the final but I had the unshaken belief of a 16 year old that the Villa wouldn’t let me down in the final. Oh for that optimism!
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Thanks for taking the time to properly answer my question. I've found them genuinely really interesting although I leave with the sense I really fucking missed out. I don't just mean witnessing us winning a European Cup, even if that didn't happen it just seemed like a great time to be a fan of a lot of football clubs (barring the obvious hooliganism issues). The introduction of state owned clubs has really tested my love of the game and I can easily see myself in a decade really struggling to care.
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It was different back then. Liverpool dominated but lots of teams did well through good coaching. When we won the league in 81, Ipswich were 2nd and West Brom 4th. The following year Watford were 2nd. The year after that, Southampton were 2nd and QPR 5th, etc etc.
Cheers for that, gives me perspective. I had no idea any of those teams got to those sort of heights. So West Brom were actually decent? Fuck. I mean I grew up around them but I just naturally tuned them out. Going to have to Google their history out of curiosity and then have a wash.
They'd have won the league in 1979 if it hadn't snowed in the winter.
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I honestly thought we had blown our best chance of winning the league with the 1976-77 team who on their day were unplayable.
Once Andy Gray left and HWWOW retired I never thought we would win the league.
After we did win the league I thought we could do well in the European Cup as Liverpool and Forest were both winning it. Didn't think we would go all the way and win it though, until we got to the semi final when I thought we had a chance. Still thought Bayern would be too strong in the final but fate was on our side.
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One of the better things of the modern age we live in is the fact that those times have been recorded for posterity on film and shows just how good the Villa were during the Saunders era. I also thought we'd missed the bus with that 76/77 side, some of the best football I've ever seen any Villa side play. Liverpool 5-1 was the best forty-five minutes I've ever seen, privileged is the word. So sad not to mention annoying, that that was one that should have been recorded on film but at least I was there.
There is also the added film bonus of the Renaissance that culminated in Rotterdam which is the time spent in the third division for which we will be forever indebted to Vic Crowd RIP et al. The shit heaps we stood on following around the country visiting ramshackle old grounds with pitches no better than Perry Hall park. With the benefit of hindsight, great days. I am so glad that this was my time and I hope with all sincerity that for those of you that weren't around to witness it that your turn is coming.
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Football was more of an adventure then, the twelve years leading to the European Cup win were unreal in every way except it was real!
I agree, we never considered ourselves capable of winning it just took each game as it came enjoying the journey…fantastic!
Yes that 77 team were one of the most exciting Villa sides, but so too the 75. The league wining side was not always pretty but was a great journey and to be able to say we were champions of England and Europe in my lifetime is something I’ll always be grateful for.
I love this club.
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Football was more of an adventure then, the twelve years leading to the European Cup win were unreal in every way except it was real!
I agree, we never considered ourselves capable of winning it just took each game as it came enjoying the journey…fantastic!
Yes that 77 team were one of the most exciting Villa sides, but so too the 75. The league wining side was not always pretty but was a great journey and to be able to say we were champions of England and Europe in my lifetime is something I’ll always be grateful for.
I love this club.
I think that’s key, 1982 was the culmination of a journey that began in division 3. We just kept building and improving with promotions and league cups to sustain us. I remember as the league winning season progressed we started singing “win the league, win the league” at away games and Saunders kept reminding players, fans and pundits just how good we were.
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To be fair , I was 21 it was just an adventure to go and watch the Villa abroad
We had know real idea apart from the obvious who were decent and their players we had to rely on the press and the Villa times to identify who they were .
I agree other than Valur we were the underdogs .
Travelling to East Germany ,Belgium and Holland was an amazing experience for a young kid.
It's a cliche but we were just enjoying the ride then we found ourselves in the semi and the country or for the most part ..really got behind us . It was very odd.
I didn't realise what such a tremendous achievement it was .
It was a laugh though.
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Not sure if this deserves a thread but who cares.
How far away did winning the European Cup seem in the seasons leading up to it?
I ask because it feels all but impossible now. Can't say impossible but as close to that as you can get. Did it feel like that in the late 70s before things turned round?
I hope it did because then it will make me think one day we could see it again.
Ten years before May 1982 we were in the Third Division. The journey over those ten years was meteoric - two promotions, two League Cup Final victories, some exciting, free flowing football with some memorable victories against top sides (1976 -77 in particular) and there was a clear sense that Ron Saunders was building something special.
The year before we won the league I felt we had a very good defence and well balanced midfield but lacked strikers of the necessary quality to take us forward further. We had a tantalising FA Cup run in 1980 which ended cruelly in the last minute at the quarter final stage away at West Ham. I was gutted as I really thought we had a chance that year - West Ham went on to beat a second division team in the Final. Then a young Gary Shaw developed into the real deal and almost simultaneously the truly inspired signing of Peter Withe was made. Those two, more than anyone else transformed us into serious contenders against any opponent.
The first step was to win the League, and I really started to believe when we won away at Goodison Park. We also beat a fantastic Liverpool team in a memorable game at Villa Park and we were on a roll. Barring the slip up at home to Ipswich near the end of the season the team had become serious, shared a winning mentality, had the ability to bounce back from any adversity and it was this belief that took us to the title.
The European Cup was just an extension of winning the League title for me. English club teams were dominant in Europe at the time and I don't recall fearing anyone en route to the Final, even Bayern. As someone else has said, the European Cup wasn't the be all and end all at the time. I think most of us of that vintage would have been dreaming more of an FA Cup Final success than the European Cup. The FA Cup really was, and remains the holy grail for us old timers.
As to whether it could happen again, you have to realise that money was not the necessary God then that it is now. And crucially there was no Bosman ruling then so if you developed home grown talent and had a manager long term who had a plan you could build a team slowly that could eventually compete at the very top. Nowadays we would probably have had the likes of Sid Cowans and Gary Shaw taken from us by the likes of Liverpool or Manchester United in the seasons before we went on to win the European Cup.
If we are to ever compete again at such a level we are going to need an inspirational manager/coach who is in it for the long term, a player recruitment policy and wealthy and ambitious owners who are prepared to back such a coach in the transfer market, fans who can consider the bigger picture and remain patient during hiccups and times of adversity, and players who are committed to the club and who won't clear off to the highest bidder as soon as they start to look like top level talent.
Battling all the evils of today's game, Leicester achieved a football miracle when they won the league title in 2016. We can do something similar only if we all believe - the manager, the owners, the players and the fans.
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Good post, Dick, especially the point you make over the implications for team-building under the Bosman ruling.
I do remember both Crowe and Saunders having a vision of Villa being a big enough club to challenge for European football. Their problem was in sloughing off the skin of failure that we'd become used to for decades. For instance, I don't think anyone felt serious about us winning the league in 1981 until we beat Liverpool and then there seemed to be a shift in how seriously we believed in ourselves.
To an extent, we're in the same position now.
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It was different back then. Liverpool dominated but lots of teams did well through good coaching. When we won the league in 81, Ipswich were 2nd and West Brom 4th. The following year Watford were 2nd. The year after that, Southampton were 2nd and QPR 5th, etc etc.
Cheers for that, gives me perspective. I had no idea any of those teams got to those sort of heights. So West Brom were actually decent? Fuck. I mean I grew up around them but I just naturally tuned them out. Going to have to Google their history out of curiosity and then have a wash.
I was bought a little tankard for Christmas 1999 that had all of the League, FA Cup & League Cup winners & runners-up, up to that point.
Even as a child, I could see when football was poisoned. It's not even to do with Villa, it's to do with competition. I'd read those details in bed and see variety.
I did (very sadly) go on work out the number of different trophy winners per decade of English football, and it goes over a fucking cliff after 1995.
I never watch PL unless it's Villa, and I never ever watch CL. But I love watching a good Championship, League 1 or League 2 match. The games are still actually competitive; there isn't the sense of a foregone conclusion. The players and the fans are still invested.
'Top-level' football is nothing but a business.
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Not sure if this deserves a thread but who cares.
How far away did winning the European Cup seem in the seasons leading up to it?
I ask because it feels all but impossible now. Can't say impossible but as close to that as you can get. Did it feel like that in the late 70s before things turned round?
I hope it did because then it will make me think one day we could see it again.
Ten years before May 1982 we were in the Third Division. The journey over those ten years was meteoric - two promotions, two League Cup Final victories, some exciting, free flowing football with some memorable victories against top sides (1976 -77 in particular) and there was a clear sense that Ron Saunders was building something special.
The year before we won the league I felt we had a very good defence and well balanced midfield but lacked strikers of the necessary quality to take us forward further. We had a tantalising FA Cup run in 1980 which ended cruelly in the last minute at the quarter final stage away at West Ham. I was gutted as I really thought we had a chance that year - West Ham went on to beat a second division team in the Final. Then a young Gary Shaw developed into the real deal and almost simultaneously the truly inspired signing of Peter Withe was made. Those two, more than anyone else transformed us into serious contenders against any opponent.
The first step was to win the League, and I really started to believe when we won away at Goodison Park. We also beat a fantastic Liverpool team in a memorable game at Villa Park and we were on a roll. Barring the slip up at home to Ipswich near the end of the season the team had become serious, shared a winning mentality, had the ability to bounce back from any adversity and it was this belief that took us to the title.
The European Cup was just an extension of winning the League title for me. English club teams were dominant in Europe at the time and I don't recall fearing anyone en route to the Final, even Bayern. As someone else has said, the European Cup wasn't the be all and end all at the time. I think most of us of that vintage would have been dreaming more of an FA Cup Final success than the European Cup. The FA Cup really was, and remains the holy grail for us old timers.
As to whether it could happen again, you have to realise that money was not the necessary God then that it is now. And crucially there was no Bosman ruling then so if you developed home grown talent and had a manager long term who had a plan you could build a team slowly that could eventually compete at the very top. Nowadays we would probably have had the likes of Sid Cowans and Gary Shaw taken from us by the likes of Liverpool or Manchester United in the seasons before we went on to win the European Cup.
If we are to ever compete again at such a level we are going to need an inspirational manager/coach who is in it for the long term, a player recruitment policy and wealthy and ambitious owners who are prepared to back such a coach in the transfer market, fans who can consider the bigger picture and remain patient during hiccups and times of adversity, and players who are committed to the club and who won't clear off to the highest bidder as soon as they start to look like top level talent.
Battling all the evils of today's game, Leicester achieved a football miracle when they won the league title in 2016. We can do something similar only if we all believe - the manager, the owners, the players and the fans.
Great post, Dick.
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Excellent post DE. I'm always very grateful that I am part of one of the golden generations of Villa fans. We cut our teeth on some awful times in the second division, but that was fine because we were young and enthusiastic , knew no better and going to the match was always a great adventure. Then we experienced growth and success in the Division three days as teenagers when it felt like we already ruled the world! Then the sides of the mid to late seventies and the Villa following made the club a very special one which felt like it was going somewhere. That said, I didn't have any certainty about winning the league until we beat Middlesbrough the week before we played Arsenal- everything seemed to come together that week and I felt it would continue at Highbury. Walking away from Highbury the following week I thought I'd experienced my greatest Villa high. Throughout the following season I didn't think we would win the European Cup but that we may surprise a few teams in one off games. I went to the final expecting a gutsy underdog performance but expecting to be beaten and determined to enjoy the trip whatever. I must be what they call a 'late adopter' because I only allowed myself to believe we would win it with about ten minutes to go and crossed fingers! Having inflicted less successful Villa times on my own children for three decades I still tell them to believe in the seemingly impossible with this club- it occasionally happens!
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I genuinely didn't believe we'd win the league right up until we met Arsenal on that Saturday and nothing in that first twenty-five minutes or so convinced me I was wrong. I didn't even want to go to the match, it was my long-time mate and Villa travelling companion that convinced me to go on the Friday for which I shall be eternally grateful. I think my negativity stemmed from the fact that Ipswich had that game in hand and the other fact that to balls it up would be such a Villa thing to do.
Me and my mate were also work colleagues and he was on nights and he came down to see me on the Friday lunch time to see what we were doing and I will never forget the sentence he said that convinced me to go, he said 'C'mon Chap, we've gotta go, think of all the years and the shit holes we've been to and all the shit football we've seen, we can't not go now when it's within touching distance'. That did it for me, the rest as they say is history. I've posted before that I attach more importance to that achievement than that of Rotterdam.
At almost seventy-four years of age, I love this club as much now as I did when I was ten.
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Beautiful Dave.
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I genuinely didn't believe we'd win the league right up until we met Arsenal on that Saturday and nothing in that first twenty-five minutes or so convinced me I was wrong. I didn't even want to go to the match, it was my long-time mate and Villa travelling companion that convinced me to go on the Friday for which I shall be eternally grateful. I think my negativity stemmed from the fact that Ipswich had that game in hand and the other fact that to balls it up would be such a Villa thing to do.
Me and my mate were also work colleagues and he was on nights and he came down to see me on the Friday lunch time to see what we were doing and I will never forget the sentence he said that convinced me to go, he said 'C'mon Chap, we've gotta go, think of all the years and the shit holes we've been to and all the shit football we've seen, we can't not go now when it's within touching distance'. That did it for me, the rest as they say is history. I've posted before that I attach more importance to that achievement than that of Rotterdam.
At almost seventy-four years of age, I love this club as much now as I did when I was ten.
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I'm 9 years younger - and I only thought exactly the same thing as we well and truly put Man Utd in their place on Sunday. And I did think "should I really be taking it this seriously at 65 years old!"
Yes, I was there through all those tremendous days and fully agree with a few things you've all said :
1977 - Really thought the treble was on ("we're gonna win the lot" and all that) - After a slightly disappointing start to 77-78 (lost at home first 2 games to Man City 1-4 and Everton 1-2 after scoring first in both games if I remember correctly - I thought we'd missed the bus for winning the league - although we only lost narrowly to Barcelona in EUFA quarters.
The 78-79 and 79-80 seasons were obviously full of Ron's master strokes for building the team bit by bit - but I still say nobody gave us much chance for league as 80-81 kicked off. I think the game that finally convinced me we could do it was the 2-0 against Liverpool and from then on it was pretty much just between us and Ipswich. The Highbury day was just amazing because like others have already said - maybe there wasn't quite so much to the european cup with the format it was played in back then and also we were just following on from where Liverpool and Nottingham Forest had left off. Like so many - the real follow up for me would have been to have won the title again or I think what most of us wanted was that FA Cup win. However despite everything - who could ever forget that moment as Tony Morley played the ball across Bayern's 6 yard line for Peter Withe to put it in. I still feel we couldn't have beaten much stiffer opposition than we did in the tournament as with the exception of Rejkovic all the other teams had been seasoned campaigners in one or other of the european competitions for as long as I could remember.
Can those days return ? Well yes I think they can
UTV
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Dynamo Berlin were the definition of a sadly long lost phrase:
"Crack Eastern European outfit"
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I think it is probably still harder to win the League than the EC. Although both feel like light years away right now.
English clubs have done well in Europe for a few years now, as they did in the 70's and 80's and we probably have a healthier budget compared to say Villarreal.
We just need to get there first.
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I think it is probably still harder to win the League than the EC. Although both feel like light years away right now.
English clubs have done well in Europe for a few years now, as they did in the 70's and 80's and we probably have a healthier budget compared to say Villarreal.
We just need to get there first.
Absolutely it is, which is why the 'Champions League' should only include the winners and (maybe) the runners up from each league.
But that would spread the talent too thinly and mean that, say Tottenham, with their inexplicable fanbase in Asia, would no longer have an advantage when it comes to attracting players over, say Ajax, or Benfica, or any of the number of other bigger and more successful clubs who worked to win their league, because sixth-placed Tottenham are a better option.
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I think it is probably still harder to win the League than the EC. Although both feel like light years away right now.
English clubs have done well in Europe for a few years now, as they did in the 70's and 80's and we probably have a healthier budget compared to say Villarreal.
We just need to get there first.
Absolutely it is, which is why the 'Champions League' should only include the winners and (maybe) the runners up from each league.
But that would spread the talent too thinly and mean that, say Tottenham, with their inexplicable fanbase in Asia, would no longer have an advantage when it comes to attracting players over, say Ajax, or Benfica, or any of the number of other bigger and more successful clubs who worked to win their league, because sixth-placed Tottenham are a better option.
The single act of making the Champions Cup a straight knockout featuring only the winners would do more to correct the problems in football than anything else
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Amen brother.
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Agreed. Pandora's Box is now open and there'll be no going back. We'll do well to keep the European league out of the way for the next 10 years I feel.
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Winning the league and European Cup seemed fantastic after being down in the 3rd division a few years before. Still got my travel pass for the day
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Winning the league and European Cup seemed fantastic after being down in the 3rd division a few years before. Still got my travel pass for the day
still got the travel pass for train and ferry to Anderlecht, only cost £28
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Winning the league and European Cup seemed fantastic after being down in the 3rd division a few years before. Still got my travel pass for the day
still got the travel pass for train and ferry to Anderlecht, only cost £28
Still have my travel pass and match ticket. Both framed and hung next to my father’s ‘57 cup final ticket.
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I think it is probably still harder to win the League than the EC. Although both feel like light years away right now.
English clubs have done well in Europe for a few years now, as they did in the 70's and 80's and we probably have a healthier budget compared to say Villarreal.
We just need to get there first.
We've probably got more of a chance of winning the Champions League rather than the Premier League - both very slim admittedly. But a couple of seasons of European experience and with Emery's know-how, there would be a chance.
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How full was the ground at Rotterdam? It always looks quite sparse from the footage, but anyone I've spoken to that was there says we were packed in.
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I can't remember exactly what the attendance was now - was it something like 39,000+? Yes when you see it on tv there's certainly empty seats on the side opposite where the cameras were - however as I remember we were nicely packed in behind the goal at our end and from where I was it looked the same in the Bayern end.
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How full was the ground at Rotterdam? It always looks quite sparse from the footage, but anyone I've spoken to that was there says we were packed in.
It was nowhere near full. 36,000 is what I remember it to be. But our terrace was packed.
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I was 17 at the time we won the league, and about to f*ck up my mock A levels.
I always felt winning the league was harder than winning the European Cup. As others have said the side of 76/77 was a fantastic side to watch, it was a great team. We just ran out of steam. As others have said there were other good sides down the division. Clough took a ragtag of a Forest side with Kenny b*stard Burns at centre half and won the league in 78. They had been promoted the year before. Liverpool were very good but there were plenty of other sides which were pretty good.
Gray and Gidman going in 79 with Little retiring just felt like the end of an era, a time to re-build. Glad I was wrong. That 80/81 season was ... well, far better described above. I think Albion, Wolves, Blues and Cov were all in the First division, so there were derbies galore but i don't recall us losing one [I haven't checked] That team of 14 were as hard as nails, knew how to win. They were a reflection of their manager.
The European Cup by contrast, just felt as if it was something you won after winning the league. The games against Anderlecht were a struggle but i never really thought we would lose. The final was one of those strange games. Danny Murphy would have said we were lucky, by contrast I never thought we would lose.
Oh, the arrogance of youth!
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How full was the ground at Rotterdam? It always looks quite sparse from the footage, but anyone I've spoken to that was there says we were packed in.
Many people did what me and my mates did. We had seating tickets but decided that was not where we wanted to be so went behind the goal where the majority had gathered. I would suggest that is what the Bayern fans did too so that when you see the footage of the game of the side opposite the cameras it looks virtually empty.
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I always felt winning the league was harder than winning the European Cup.
It's a good point. Also worth mentioning the FA Cup was seen as a bigger event. There were lots of mentions for the Spurs/QPR replay (if memory serves) during coverage of the European Cup Final. I think England was still in an era tainted by our refusal to demean ourselves by taking part in the early European Cups. Of course we beat Johnny Foreigner, that's what we do. But the FA Cup was the greatest accolade of all, closely followed by the League title. Oh how times change.
I still think it was harder to win when it was only knockout between the champions. Now there are half a dozen collections of mercenaries that can and will win it. Then, for all the Nordic no-marks there were the Communist collectives and Belgian bribers who made it a right bugger in some ties. I'd love to see today's mardyarse managers suddenly find they're playing in Crimea, not Kiev.
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Slightly off topic but Rotterdam 1982 led to this 40 years ago today.
https://twitter.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1618528795195052032?t=6JP3y04Pjq1NvlpnF4sIBw&s=19
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Slightly off topic but Rotterdam 1982 led to this 40 years ago today.
https://twitter.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1618528795195052032?t=6JP3y04Pjq1NvlpnF4sIBw&s=19
This was good
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/22/golden-goal-ken-mcnaught-for-aston-villa-v-barcelona-1983-super-cup (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/22/golden-goal-ken-mcnaught-for-aston-villa-v-barcelona-1983-super-cup)
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The season we won the league, 80-81, there was Albion, Birmingham, Wolves, Coventry, Leicester, Forest and Stoke also in the division, and no, I don't think we lost a game against any of them.
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Ipswich players from then, are always saying they should have won the league, but 80-81 was the last season that is was 2 points for a win, so if it had been 3 points for a win, we would have finished on 86 points and Ipswich 79, I rest my case.
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Slightly off topic but Rotterdam 1982 led to this 40 years ago today.
https://twitter.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1618528795195052032?t=6JP3y04Pjq1NvlpnF4sIBw&s=19
This was good
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/22/golden-goal-ken-mcnaught-for-aston-villa-v-barcelona-1983-super-cup (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/22/golden-goal-ken-mcnaught-for-aston-villa-v-barcelona-1983-super-cup)
Fantastic read, Lee. It all comes flooding back. It really was a mental game and the first time I've heard of the conversation between Big Ken and Withey. He didn't hang around did he.
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Ipswich players from then, are always saying they should have won the league, but 80-81 was the last season that is was 2 points for a win, so if it had been 3 points for a win, we would have finished on 86 points and Ipswich 79, I rest my case.
Moral victors - best of both worlds. Can claim greatness while never having to buy a cabinet or a can of Brasso.
I envy them.
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Ipswich players from then, are always saying they should have won the league, but 80-81 was the last season that is was 2 points for a win, so if it had been 3 points for a win, we would have finished on 86 points and Ipswich 79, I rest my case.
Moral victors - best of both worlds. Can claim greatness while never having to buy a cabinet or a can of Brasso.
I envy them.
Ipswich were the better team for 36 games in the same way we were in 1992-3. The league title is (or was) decided over 42 games.
The best team win it. Cups aren't like that necessarily
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Slightly off topic but Rotterdam 1982 led to this 40 years ago today.
https://twitter.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1618528795195052032?t=6JP3y04Pjq1NvlpnF4sIBw&s=19
This was good
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/22/golden-goal-ken-mcnaught-for-aston-villa-v-barcelona-1983-super-cup (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/22/golden-goal-ken-mcnaught-for-aston-villa-v-barcelona-1983-super-cup)
Fantastic read, Lee. It all comes flooding back. It really was a mental game and the first time I've heard of the conversation between Big Ken and Withey. He didn't hang around did he.
I agree Mark. I read this years ago and have always found it to be a brilliantly constructed and informative article. I find something new that makes me laugh every time I read it.
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I think we played 14 midlands derbies in 80/81 and didn't lose a single one!
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I think we played 14 midlands derbies in 80/81 and didn't lose a single one!
Yes. Stoke, Wolves, Small Heath, Smethwick, Coventry, Forest and Leicester I think.
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While Ipswich only had to worry about Norwich in terms of derbies. And as they're "a great leveller", it's a point worth making that all those midland teams would invariably have tried harder against us than other opponents.
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The frequency of derbies was sometimes cited as one of the reasons why there was relatively few London clubs that won the league. Good coaching (Wenger) and unlimited funds (Abramovich) has changed that in the Premier League era - but I guess for Spurs it's a straw to continue to cling to.
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Good point. Ugh, does this mean one must feel sympathy for them?
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The reason was the Villa allocation was officially hugely reduced due to the Anderlecht issues .
Club trips only and availability to others was a dusting need to no basis .
I was to the left of the Villa area , my mates or some of them were smack bang in the middle of the Munich fans behind the goal ...
Most of the side stand facing the cameras was a mixture of "rogue Villa " and locals and other Europeans for the most part supporting the Villa
Loads of Gladbach loons a d others .
Despite all the limitations it was a decent turnout and the assigned Villa sections were rammed .
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I remember the draconian messaging re tickets only being available to fans who signed up for the official trip. Once in Rotterdam I saw loads of people who had bought tickets unofficially but many would have been put off I reckon.
I met quite a few Dutch who were very anti German including a couple of Feyenoord fans in our section but never heard of the Gladbach fans. What was that about?
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The reason was the Villa allocation was officially hugely reduced due to the Anderlecht issues .
Club trips only and availability to others was a dusting need to no basis .
I was to the left of the Villa area , my mates or some of them were smack bang in the middle of the Munich fans behind the goal ...
Most of the side stand facing the cameras was a mixture of "rogue Villa " and locals and other Europeans for the most part supporting the Villa
Loads of Gladbach loons a d others .
Despite all the limitations it was a decent turnout and the assigned Villa sections were rammed .
That where the Bayern Munich fans throw a massive firecracker at them?
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I've said on here before somewhere, at the bar we were in, so far as the Dutch were concerned the war had been over for about two weeks. Their pure hatred of the Germans was visceral.
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When there was that altercation with some Bayern fans that decided to come for a mooch at the Villa fans outside the Irish pub on all down the central reservation .....there were plenty of Dutch fans that went over to say "hello" so they Germans fired thier starting pistol and run off .
I was to the right upstairs from the Villa fans and I can confirm the Gladbach fans there were about 8 of them behind us ...and they celebrated as wildly as we did .
Tickets were a devil to get hold of despite going the Berlin ,Anderlecht prior ...
Ours were sourced by an unknown person on the Harwich to Hoek of Holland ferry .
We ended up with spares due to the unfortunate tout who was relieved of his stash by some wedgeheaded scallywags leading to tickets flying into the air outside the Villa end ...and we found a few guilders also .
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Strange to think now that other than forced substitution of Spink for Rimmer early on, we didn’t make another change for the rest of the game, Bayern actually made 2.
Also I’ve seen the game hundreds of times in the past 41 years, and I may be wrong but I don’t think either side had a corner in the entire match?
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Villa definitely had a two or three corners in the first half.
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I've said on here before somewhere, at the bar we were in, so far as the Dutch were concerned the war had been over for about two weeks. Their pure hatred of the Germans was visceral.
Same here, I remember this friendly Dutch fella probably in his late 40s/50s, talking football, wishing us luck, then left us by saying 'the only good German is a dead German'.
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I'm having my annual watch of the game. What always stands out was how well Gary Williams played that night despite being the only player booked.
Watching the game through modern eyes two other thing seems very apparent. A lot of the fouls would now be bookings and the both sides turn the ball over far more than you would see in a game today.
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A remarkably under-rated player, Gary Williams. Full-back on either side, centre-back or defensive midfield, you'd always get a steady performance from him -a manager's dream.
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A remarkably under-rated player, Gary Williams. Full-back on either side, centre-back or defensive midfield, you'd always get a steady performance from him -a manager's dream.
Most of that team were underrated, confirmed by the lack of international recognition for pretty much all of them. It's incomprehensible that all of our English players combined, including greats like Spink, Mortimer, Cowans, Shaw, Morley and Withe couldn't muster 30 England caps between them!
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A remarkably under-rated player, Gary Williams. Full-back on either side, centre-back or defensive midfield, you'd always get a steady performance from him -a manager's dream.
Most of that team were underrated, confirmed by the lack of international recognition for pretty much all of them. It's incomprehensible that all of our English players combined, including greats like Spink, Mortimer, Cowans, Shaw, Morley and Withe couldn't muster 30 England caps between them!
And some of the ones Sid got were while he was with Bari. I never understood Bobby Robson's thinking when he recalled him prior to the 1986 World Cup. Picked him for the friendly against Egypt in which he played well and scored and then he wasn't in the final 22 despite there being an injury doubt about Brian Robson (which recurred against Morocco) the general inexperience of the rest except Wilkins (who proceeded to get himself sent off in that games against Morocco)
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A remarkably under-rated player, Gary Williams. Full-back on either side, centre-back or defensive midfield, you'd always get a steady performance from him -a manager's dream.
Most of that team were underrated, confirmed by the lack of international recognition for pretty much all of them. It's incomprehensible that all of our English players combined, including greats like Spink, Mortimer, Cowans, Shaw, Morley and Withe couldn't muster 30 England caps between them!
And how out of our three Scottish players only Evans was capped (4 times) (Bremner got his one cap when he was at Hibs).
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Part of it was down to the mysterious injuries that kept our players out of under-21 games.
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Part of it was down to the mysterious injuries that kept our players out of under-21 games.
Was that Ron Saunders inventing an Alex Fergusonism?
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Part of it was down to the mysterious injuries that kept our players out of under-21 games.
Was that Ron Saunders inventing an Alex Fergusonism?
More than likely.