Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Malandro on January 03, 2016, 11:21:28 AM
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We are in a unique situation - a big club, almost certainly relegated before the January transfer window.
Do we have an opportunity to get a lot of business done for next season?
Will we face any different financial restrictions once we drop into the Championship?
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The championship has a more restrictive FFP regime but we will get some leeway as we came down from the Prem.
2015/16 & BEYOND
Championship clubs will be permitted to lose a maximum of £13m under The Football League’s Financial Fair Play (FFP) rules during 2015/16, the final season under the current FFP regulations. Next season will see the introduction of a new set of ‘Profitability and Sustainability’ regulations that will deliver a consistent approach to Financial Fair Play for those clubs that move between the two divisions through promotion and relegation.Championship clubs voted to change their FPP rules in November 2014 as part of the wide-ranging negotiations with the top-flight about future solidarity arrangements that has contractually linked the finances of The Football League and Premier League for the first time since the formation of the latter in 1992. The £13m limit for 2015/16 is in line with the losses permitted under the new regulations which will permit a maximum loss of £39m over a rolling 3 season timeframe (compared to an equivalent figure of £105m in the Premier League). A club that moves between the Premier League and Championship will be assessed in accordance with the permitted loss in the relevant divisions played in during the 3 year period in question. For example, a club that had played two seasons in the Championship and one in the Premier League would have a maximum permitted loss of £61m, consisting of one season at £35m and two at £13m.
Read more at http://www.football-league.co.uk/news/article/2015/football-league-ffp-guidance-2632728.aspx#C3RZD0R2UUKpW3KO.99 (http://www.football-league.co.uk/news/article/2015/football-league-ffp-guidance-2632728.aspx#C3RZD0R2UUKpW3KO.99)
If we don't go straight back up, it will get more difficult as time goes on.
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So reading between the lines, we can't just spunk a load of money in this window to give us an advantage in the championship (if any player would indeed buy our strategy)
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As much as they didn't fit into our plans. I regret Lowton and Weimann leaving now.
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It may be worth targeting some of the better Championship players this Jan. A chance in the PL may appeal to them and if/when the inevitable happens we have them in place and bedded in ready to try and come straight back up.
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Any players we buy in January should be capable of playing in the championship that is for sure. While itt doesnt mean we should buy a load of cloggers, we will need those with a bit of fight.
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Of only it was as simple as that.
Relegation will mean the club in the eyes of the national press will cease to exist. Out of sight and out of mind.
There will be less income, undoubtedly lower attendances, fewer commercial deals because only want the gravy boat that is the Premier League, and a squad of players who are barely Championship standard.
Some would argue that the club deserves to go bankrupt.
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As much as they didn't fit into our plans. I regret Lowton and Weimann leaving now.
I liked Weimann, he wasn't good enough but you couldn't fault his effort. He probably needed to move on anyway.
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The trouble is, we're currently that shit, I don't have any confidence we will come back next season.
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I'd start by moving out any player that we possibly can and line up replacements so we can start planning for next season before our fellow relegation company know how their fate. It's vital we steal a march on them if we are to stand any chance of getting back up.
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We are but at the same time we are rock bottom confidence wise. I genuinely think we 3 or 4 experienced players that will lead by example we will come back easily. Gestede needs confidence. He can score goals with service. Ayew will score if he stays. All about getting those 3-4 leaders through the spine.
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I think our lowest point is yet to come, our squad in the Championship?
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I'd get a manager with a record for scrapping his way out of the Championship. No time for cheap experiments, we need to muscle our way out in the first season before we become as institutionally shit In the 2nd division as we gave been for the last 5 years in the Prem. I'd hate us to be as accepting of the kind of rubbish we have had to endure recently.
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As much as they didn't fit into our plans. I regret Lowton and Weimann leaving now.
I liked Weimann, he wasn't good enough but you couldn't fault his effort. He probably needed to move on anyway.
Is he doing well at derby? Came on as sub yesterday. £3m was a good deal for us I reckon
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I don't think Garde is particularly cheap. And why would getting say Pearson be a certainty of coming up? Failed everywhere but Leicester and even then was saved by an incredible run that will never be emulated.
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I had an interesting conversation yesterday morning with a long term Man City-supporting friend. He made the point that when City were spiralling down to the third tier, for the two seasons in what was then Division 1 they tried to play football with "Premiership" players and were routinely beaten. It wasn't until Joe Royle pitched up. albeit too late to avoid the relegation to Division 2, that they started to get in the ugly fuckers like Andy Morrison necessary to turn things round at that level. They then had to face up to the same problem, but in reverse - two back-to-back promotions and a squad not really ready for the return to the top level. They didn't really do it and once the momentum had run out they were relegated again at the end of the second season.
So what is needed at the Villa is the planning to start now as to who to get in to do a job at the level we'll be playing at next season - but with a longer term plan as to who to bring in and integrate ready to do what is necessary should we return quickly to the Premier League. Based on what has gone on over the last few years, I won't hold by breath.
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who mentioned Pearson? Although he'd be a better bet, I reckon. And if you're looking at his record, you have to compare it with Garde's. I also reckon Garde was cheap - if Lerner paid top dollar for him he must be even madder than I thought.
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we will prob go down again unless you buy players who kick the feck out of other players
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Harry Redknapp anyone? Yes he's had his relegations but he's had promotions too. Very experienced and higher profile. Doesn't strike me as anyone's yes man.
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I'd get a manager with a record for scrapping his way out of the Championship. No time for cheap experiments, we need to muscle our way out in the first season before we become as institutionally shit In the 2nd division as we gave been for the last 5 years in the Prem. I'd hate us to be as accepting of the kind of rubbish we have had to endure recently.
I hope these terms are being used to define character, not style of play. From what I can tell of recent, promotion and staying up is attained through pacy football and scoring plenty of goals.
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I'd get a manager with a record for scrapping his way out of the Championship. No time for cheap experiments, we need to muscle our way out in the first season before we become as institutionally shit In the 2nd division as we gave been for the last 5 years in the Prem. I'd hate us to be as accepting of the kind of rubbish we have had to endure recently.
I hope these terms are being used to define character, not style of play. From what I can tell of recent, promotion and staying up is attained through pacy football and scoring plenty of goals.
All of the newly promoted teams have got more scrap and muscle about them than our bunch of jogging lightweights
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I'd get a manager with a record for scrapping his way out of the Championship. No time for cheap experiments, we need to muscle our way out in the first season before we become as institutionally shit In the 2nd division as we gave been for the last 5 years in the Prem. I'd hate us to be as accepting of the kind of rubbish we have had to endure recently.
I hope these terms are being used to define character, not style of play. From what I can tell of recent, promotion and staying up is attained through pacy football and scoring plenty of goals.
All of the newly promoted teams have got more scrap and muscle about them than our bunch of jogging lightweights
My granddaughters play group have more fight than our lot.
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Can you imagine a clown like Bacuna rocking up at Rotherham with his ridiculous headphones and couldn't care less swagger?
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only too easily at the moment I'm afraid.
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I had an interesting conversation yesterday morning with a long term Man City-supporting friend. He made the point that when City were spiralling down to the third tier, for the two seasons in what was then Division 1 they tried to play football with "Premiership" players and were routinely beaten. It wasn't until Joe Royle pitched up. albeit too late to avoid the relegation to Division 2, that they started to get in the ugly fuckers like Andy Morrison necessary to turn things round at that level. They then had to face up to the same problem, but in reverse - two back-to-back promotions and a squad not really ready for the return to the top level. They didn't really do it and once the momentum had run out they were relegated again at the end of the second season.
So what is needed at the Villa is the planning to start now as to who to get in to do a job at the level we'll be playing at next season - but with a longer term plan as to who to bring in and integrate ready to do what is necessary should we return quickly to the Premier League. Based on what has gone on over the last few years, I won't hold by breath.
The Man City experience looks like one we must very much avoid but seems all to likely - as I said on another thread plan now!!!!
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I had an interesting conversation yesterday morning with a long term Man City-supporting friend. He made the point that when City were spiralling down to the third tier, for the two seasons in what was then Division 1 they tried to play football with "Premiership" players and were routinely beaten. It wasn't until Joe Royle pitched up. albeit too late to avoid the relegation to Division 2, that they started to get in the ugly fuckers like Andy Morrison necessary to turn things round at that level. They then had to face up to the same problem, but in reverse - two back-to-back promotions and a squad not really ready for the return to the top level. They didn't really do it and once the momentum had run out they were relegated again at the end of the second season.
So what is needed at the Villa is the planning to start now as to who to get in to do a job at the level we'll be playing at next season - but with a longer term plan as to who to bring in and integrate ready to do what is necessary should we return quickly to the Premier League. Based on what has gone on over the last few years, I won't hold by breath.
as I said on another thread plan now!!!!
You are right too. This is the only positive in our plight - we can get the recriminations out the way early.
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Won't be easy, anybody who thinks we're going to come storming back because we're Aston Villa is in for a rude awakening, I can honestly see us being there for several seasons with this set-up, to change it sufficiently will take top-dollar - and we currently don't have it, if the new buyers aren't sufficiently committed enough then the only way is down.
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We are looking like a club that employs the worst type of footballer. The type that has no emotional connection to the club they are with, they have no passion for its wellbeing. Just as long as they get their extortionate wages they are happy, the money keeps them insulated from real life. The crest on their shirt means nothing to them, the club is a vessel to give them the means to maintain ridiculous lifestyles that we can only dream of. They have footballing talent that most of is would die for, but they don't care, their god given talent is a money maker and that is all. They just do the bare minimum with this talent to keep the money flowing in until they can get another club to prop their lifestyle. We have too many of these guys at the club that have nothing other than money to believe in.
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Depends on who's in charge. The problem with us is we're too nice and I'm afraid I don't have faith in Garde to tackle a Championship campaign. I get that he's a bright, intelligent man who knows a bit about football, but the lower division is a mean, nasty, bear pit of an environment. When we went down in the 80's, SGT was brought in and he was an absolute bastard. That's what will be required.
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Can you imagine a clown like Bacuna rocking up at Rotherham with his ridiculous headphones and couldn't care less swagger?
Yes. Yes I can. :(
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As much as they didn't fit into our plans. I regret Lowton and Weimann leaving now.
I liked Matt Lowton although his defending was a bitdodge. imagine Lowton delivering for Gestede?
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Watched the league show today. Its dog eat dog down there with lots of big clubs scrapping it out. Im worried VP will become another great away day for a new set of clubs. Being centrally located, thered be big away followings and we'd be the biggest scalp. Our current lambs wouldnt stand a chance
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Watched the league show today. Its dog eat dog down there with lots of big clubs scrapping it out. Im worried VP will become another great away day for a new set of clubs. Being centrally located, thered be big away followings and we'd be the biggest scalp. Our current lambs wouldnt stand a chance
VP has long been an easy three points for too many teams. There is a great sense of unease over the place which feeds from the top to the pitch. I can't see it changing much next season and I suspect that our route to promotion will lie on the road, like it did last time around.
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I really don't see the point of looking to buy players who are 'Championship quality' at present. What we need are players who can make a difference now & ship out the majority of the dross as soon as this wretched season is over. Our current mob - with a handful of exceptions - have done absolutely nothing to convince me that we will be successful when the inevitable finally happens. It's extremely unlikely that any meaningful business will be done before the Summer, although the budget afforded to bring in new players can presumably be worked out in the meantime and individuals can be sounded out. Goodness knows what the result will be, but if Garde is going to remain here he HAS to be given the power to assemble a squad that he believes will be good enough to be successful. Unfortunately, I can see the recruitment muppets behind the scenes completely undermining the manager's wishes: and the outcome will be clear to see. I can only hope we will be in for a pleasant surprise, but I won't be holding my breath. God I feel depressed. :(
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I'd appoint Mark Warburton as Manager. Knows the league, did very well with Brentford. As is doing a cracking job at Rangers so knows how to handle a big club. I'd also like to see Harry Forrester and Jordan Graham back in midfield.
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This squad will not get us out of the championship. Come the end of the season the morale will be unrepairable.
I doubt if we have relegation clauses allowing a reduction in wages for those who stay.
So the budget to create a team to get us out will be severely restricted.
Unless radical action starts now we could be fucked for a very long time.
This is the perfect storm, a bunch of over paid under achieving mercenaries with a losing mentality without the slightest bit desire,protected by long term contracts with revenues about to decline significantly.With an owner that wants out and a manager without the relevant experience.
It is hard to imagine a worse scenario than what we are facing.
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We are looking like a club that employs the worst type of footballer. The type that has no emotional connection to the club they are with, they have no passion for its wellbeing. Just as long as they get their extortionate wages they are happy, the money keeps them insulated from real life. The crest on their shirt means nothing to them, the club is a vessel to give them the means to maintain ridiculous lifestyles that we can only dream of. They have footballing talent that most of is would die for, but they don't care, their god given talent is a money maker and that is all. They just do the bare minimum with this talent to keep the money flowing in until they can get another club to prop their lifestyle. We have too many of these guys at the club that have nothing other than money to believe in.
Spot on !
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Harry Redknapp anyone? Yes he's had his relegations but he's had promotions too. Very experienced and higher profile. Doesn't strike me as anyone's yes man.
Cheque book manager.
Do you think he'd get the money he'd want for players from Lerner,unlikely? In any case, Redknapp would need to commute every day from Poole as he did at Spurs so don't think it's a goer and he wouldn't be my choice.
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Can you imagine a clown like Bacuna rocking up at Rotherham with his ridiculous headphones and couldn't care less swagger?
don't players at Rotherham have access to headphones? I don't think a young man with headphones is a PL thing to be honest.
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Can you imagine a clown like Bacuna rocking up at Rotherham with his ridiculous headphones and couldn't care less swagger?
yes and he would still be shit
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One thing O'Neil did was establish a means to an end. He brought pace into the side, height and somebody capable of delivering the ball. He opined that if you have ten dead ball opportunities per game then they shouldn't be wasted. If you can go back to front very quickly, then the opposition has to sacrifice territory. If you're strong out wide, then you need to be good in the air. We had a style, which at home could be blunted, but nonetheless was effective.
We've had no discernable means since. We've spent a lot of money, but it's a scattergun approach and a hotchpotch mesh of different managers half baked ideas.
We need to address this for next season and we should start now.
The Championship is poor quality. Watch the games on Sky and see for yourself. The pace isn't any quicker, it'd just more frenetic because there is less quality on the ball. The best sides always come up. When they say it's a tough league, they mean it's a poor one blunt of quality.
We will be the biggest club down there, with the biggest wage budget and likely one of the biggest transfer budgets too, depending on who joins us in the drop. The name Aston Villa holds currency, as would Newcastle, in a way Hull or QPR never will. Use this financial and physical size advantage to target players.
The way I see it, Gestede offers very little outside the box. He's a championship player and he bagged 20 which tells you a lot. Amavi and Ayew have excellent delivery, but we are short up front in this league and we'd be short in most. A few pages back somebody categorised the two characteristics I think the side should have to come back up; pace and power. Flood the forward areas with pace, control territory for set pieces or crosses and Gestede will actually be an asset.
We need more mobility though and a couple of quick forwards would be ideal. I am not the best at examples, but the Palace lad we were linked with; quick and direct, somebody to get the opposition to face their own goal more often than not and get squared up. That would at least be a second dimension to our attacking play.
Ayew may well get poached but it won't be cheap. If he stays I would suggest one fast winger, if he goes, then two. Again, as examples, Hoillet, Philips, Puncheon, players of that ilk with experience of the league would be useful. Added I to Sinclair, whose delivery I don't think is good enough for this league, I think we'd force a lot of sides to sit very deep and away from home let us go back to front like the ONeill days. Sinclair has done well in that league before and would weigh in with goals. Equally, Traore would be an asset and you'd have four quick wide men to get you through a long season. We would also have greater capacity given our turnover (albeit reduced) and size under the rules to put together forward options like that.
Gil and Grealish I think we'd keep and may be able to provide guile and flair but only if the platform behind them is provided. Sanchez is powerful enough, but isn't good enough and cannot be trusted to cover the back four. We need a big horrible git in there to really provide steel to the spine. Jedinak is your typical horrible Aussie and I'd welcome him, or somebody like him. That type of player would complement Veretout and his industry. We are too soft and easy to defend against, sides should find it physically difficult first and foremost to.play against us; pace and power are a must to let the extra quality we have flourish.
You can take a broom to the back five. Amavi I like, Okore if he could string games together offers potential, but the rest are garbage.
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That's a good analysis Ads. I thought Lambert knew what he was doing with the front line of Benteke, Gabby and Weimann. It was a quick and often exciting front line that had pace, power and potential. It should have built on but all too quickly fell apart for any number of reasons. Around that we've had a mixed bag of theories, things that I would hesitate to call tactics or strategies and with it inconsistency in players being brought to the club. How is it possible for someone like Garde to come to the club and want to play a certain way when a good number of the players are not good enough or simply aren't the types of players he would look to buy? We need to stop this constant change so that means to an end can be Garde's version. It will take some time to do that and patience within our supporter ranks couldn't be any thinner.
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This squad will not get us out of the championship. Come the end of the season the morale will be unrepairable.
I doubt if we have relegation clauses allowing a reduction in wages for those who stay.
So the budget to create a team to get us out will be severely restricted.
Unless radical action starts now we could be fucked for a very long time.
This is the perfect storm, a bunch of over paid under achieving mercenaries with a losing mentality without the slightest bit desire,protected by long term contracts with revenues about to decline significantly.With an owner that wants out and a manager without the relevant experience.
It is hard to imagine a worse scenario than what we are facing.
It might get us out of the Championship. Just not in the right direction.
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Harry Redknapp anyone? Yes he's had his relegations but he's had promotions too. Very experienced and higher profile. Doesn't strike me as anyone's yes man.
Cheque book manager.
Do you think he'd get the money he'd want for players from Lerner,unlikely? In any case, Redknapp would need to commute every day from Poole as he did at Spurs so don't think it's a goer and he wouldn't be my choice.
How VERY dare you! He's a triffick geezer wiv a triffick attitude, gaw blimey guv.
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As much as they didn't fit into our plans. I regret Lowton and Weimann leaving now.
Lowton can't get in the Burnley team and Weimann has 3 goals. These aren't the players you are looking for, move along.
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Watched the league show today. Its dog eat dog down there with lots of big clubs scrapping it out. Im worried VP will become another great away day for a new set of clubs. Being centrally located, thered be big away followings and we'd be the biggest scalp. Our current lambs wouldnt stand a chance
We will get bummed in that division.
Genuine horror show, like the greenhouse scene in Scum.
A team that has been as dreadful as we have been for the past four years isn't going to suddenly start winning the 20+ games it is needed to get out of that league.
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As much as they didn't fit into our plans. I regret Lowton and Weimann leaving now.
Lowton can't get in the Burnley team and Weimann has 3 goals. These aren't the players you are looking for, move along.
I'm not sure about Lowton, but my brother-in-law says Andi has done well considering he's had to make do on the wing. But like you say - we've moved on.
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We actually upgraded on a player in the summer, the Weimann to Ayew transfer has been the one shining light. If only it wasn't massively offset by Benteke to pantomime horse.
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One thing O'Neil did was establish a means to an end. He brought pace into the side, height and somebody capable of delivering the ball. He opined that if you have ten dead ball opportunities per game then they shouldn't be wasted. If you can go back to front very quickly, then the opposition has to sacrifice territory. If you're strong out wide, then you need to be good in the air. We had a style, which at home could be blunted, but nonetheless was effective.
We've had no discernable means since. We've spent a lot of money, but it's a scattergun approach and a hotchpotch mesh of different managers half baked ideas.
We need to address this for next season and we should start now.
The Championship is poor quality. Watch the games on Sky and see for yourself. The pace isn't any quicker, it'd just more frenetic because there is less quality on the ball. The best sides always come up. When they say it's a tough league, they mean it's a poor one blunt of quality.
We will be the biggest club down there, with the biggest wage budget and likely one of the biggest transfer budgets too, depending on who joins us in the drop. The name Aston Villa holds currency, as would Newcastle, in a way Hull or QPR never will. Use this financial and physical size advantage to target players.
The way I see it, Gestede offers very little outside the box. He's a championship player and he bagged 20 which tells you a lot. Amavi and Ayew have excellent delivery, but we are short up front in this league and we'd be short in most. A few pages back somebody categorised the two characteristics I think the side should have to come back up; pace and power. Flood the forward areas with pace, control territory for set pieces or crosses and Gestede will actually be an asset.
We need more mobility though and a couple of quick forwards would be ideal. I am not the best at examples, but the Palace lad we were linked with; quick and direct, somebody to get the opposition to face their own goal more often than not and get squared up. That would at least be a second dimension to our attacking play.
Ayew may well get poached but it won't be cheap. If he stays I would suggest one fast winger, if he goes, then two. Again, as examples, Hoillet, Philips, Puncheon, players of that ilk with experience of the league would be useful. Added I to Sinclair, whose delivery I don't think is good enough for this league, I think we'd force a lot of sides to sit very deep and away from home let us go back to front like the ONeill days. Sinclair has done well in that league before and would weigh in with goals. Equally, Traore would be an asset and you'd have four quick wide men to get you through a long season. We would also have greater capacity given our turnover (albeit reduced) and size under the rules to put together forward options like that.
Gil and Grealish I think we'd keep and may be able to provide guile and flair but only if the platform behind them is provided. Sanchez is powerful enough, but isn't good enough and cannot be trusted to cover the back four. We need a big horrible git in there to really provide steel to the spine. Jedinak is your typical horrible Aussie and I'd welcome him, or somebody like him. That type of player would complement Veretout and his industry. We are too soft and easy to defend against, sides should find it physically difficult first and foremost to.play against us; pace and power are a must to let the extra quality we have flourish.
You can take a broom to the back five. Amavi I like, Okore if he could string games together offers potential, but the rest are garbage.
I agree with that analysis and for an example, we only have to look at the Blues game earlier in the season. Blues were organised and compact, but Gray aside, had very little quality in the final third. They also got ripped apart by pace out wide at times, so like you have said above, all the clues are there.
If he stays and has the right attitude, Ayew should be too good for teams at that level and I would look at adding a similar paced player on the other side (it ight be worth loaning Traore out for a season). I think Grealish and Gil would be good in that league, but we would need a couple of solid midfielders to hive us that base behind them, with Veretout hopefully staying as well. The back four would need rebuilding with a new keeper also coming in.
We need a new striker whatever happens and would like to see Gestede limited to last 20 minute cameos at most.
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Can't see Benteke lasting very long at Pool, still getting goals but looks a shadow of his best, Collins of all players dominated him on Saturday.
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As much as they didn't fit into our plans. I regret Lowton and Weimann leaving now.
Don't make me laugh. Both crap and in Weimann's case utterly so. Carlos Cuellar's reputation improved with every game he didn't play for us but Weimann's is irrecoverable (not that he had one to start with).
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Can't see Benteke lasting very long at Pool, still getting goals but looks a shadow of his best, Collins of all players dominated him on Saturday.
The fans haven't taken to him either. He scores goals but they expect more here. Trouble with Benteke is, he's a lazy player. He's not going to do much unless he's having one of his fired up games. He may well have a decent scoring record but a bunch of feck stains like Liverpool, who think they should be pushing for the title every year, want to see something else aside from the goals. You got that with Suarez and to be fair to Sturridge, when he actually can play, he works hard too.
Granted Michael Owen wasnt renowned for his work rate but he had the advantage of coming through their ranks as a kid and any one half decent coming through the youths at Liverpool will have their fans tugging themselves raw. And his goal record there was exceptional.
I think they'll sell Benteke this summer or next Jan. He'll leave with a fairly decent goal return but not too much sadness from their fans. He just doesn't quite fit there. He was more suited to us where he could be our superstar. We could (just about) forgive long lean spells in front of goal and games where he couldn't be bothered or sulked because he'd produce moments of brilliance.
I think he'll do well in Italy, France or Spain, maybe Germany. You can perhaps get away with being a bit more mercurial. Failing that he drops down to a smaller club and becomes a big fish in a small pond again, but he's got enough talent to be at a CL club. Probably not enough to be a top four Premiership striker though, because he's too erratic.
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This is the first forum I have ever joined !!!! Like so many Villa Fans I hope that this will be an outlet for my extreme depression over the state of AVFC and prove to be at least a little therapeutic. I have supported the Villa for some 45 years and was a season ticket holder till moving to Devon 34 years ago. I feel greatly for you fans who attend the games week in and week out and have the greatest respect for your loyalty at this most depressing time. It does seem a long time ago when Villa consistently played attractive, attacking and skilful football.
I realise that I am fairly ignorant with regards to the current set up at the Club so please make allowances for that. I would appreciate answers to the following questions:
1. Was Nigel Pearson ever interviewed for the manager's role ?
2. Do we have any quality U21's who could gradually be brought into the first team during the rest of this season ?
3. Are there any signs that Garde is bringing more organisation into the team on the pitch?
4. So we get relegated, are there any positives for us to hang on to at the moment ?
5. Is it conceivable that we will do a Leeds?
6. Now and in the Championship we will need a manager who can get players welded into a real team and get them playing consistently to the best of their ability and beyond as did my hero Brian Clough and currently Eddie Howe - although early days, are there any indications that Garde will fit the bill ?
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If we all accept the club is going down we can actually use this miserable episode positively. We first have to be sure that Garde is going to be our manager next season. He's saying the right things at least. In which case he should recall all of our players who are out on loan (Baker, Bennett, Donacien etc) if legally able and he should get a good look at them for the rest of the season so he can decide who will be of use next season or not. He should also try and sell any player this month who 1) thinks they're too good to play for us next season, or 2)any player who he has seen enough of in training to know won't have the desire to fight for his footballing life in The Championship. If that means releasing Ayew, Traore, Gil, Veretout and Richards this month, so be it. A collection of Billy Big Bollocks will be of no use to us next August. The fact that Amavi is injured for the rest of this season suggests he will be with us next season if he likes it or not.
Come May we will then be able to identify targets to add to the squad and move forward. We already have a proven striker at Championship level in Gestede, and I'd partner him with Rickie Lambert, another proven scorer at that level.
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Tomd, I think the Noses game was very telling. Ayew's movement second half ripped them apart and couldn't live with our quick passing. They're pushing for promotion and offered nothing.
I get that there is no confidence at the moment, but I just cannot see why people think we will drop through the leagues. My previous post wasn't anything particularly novel, but highlighted a way and means of taking on that league and going for the title, which has to be the aim.
Financially, we are significantly stronger than any of the teams down there, so we will be capable of squad renewal to buy the firepower necessary.
The defence needs a lot of work and I think we should be aiming for a mixture of big, physical and experienced championship centre half with a blend of younger players capable of carrying on their development after promotion.
I'd start the work now. Next year's keeper, holding midfielder and centre half. If there are loan deals to be done then have a go, but I think we need to be bigger, stronger (dare I say snide) and faster. With players like Veretout, Amavi, Ayew supplemented by a new spine, then the flair players like Grealish, Gil and Traore will have a big impact. Without wishing to labour the point, Sinclair and Gestede were big successes in that league, even poor players like Westwood may have a limited role to offer.
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Tomd, I think the Noses game was very telling. Ayew's movement second half ripped them apart and couldn't live with our quick passing. They're pushing for promotion and offered nothing.
I get that there is no confidence at the moment, but I just cannot see why people think we will drop through the leagues. My previous post wasn't anything particularly novel, but highlighted a way and means of taking on that league and going for the title, which has to be the aim.
Financially, we are significantly stronger than any of the teams down there, so we will be capable of squad renewal to buy the firepower necessary.
The defence needs a lot of work and I think we should be aiming for a mixture of big, physical and experienced championship centre half with a blend of younger players capable of carrying on their development after promotion.
I'd start the work now. Next year's keeper, holding midfielder and centre half. If there are loan deals to be done then have a go, but I think we need to be bigger, stronger (dare I say snide) and faster. With players like Veretout, Amavi, Ayew supplemented by a new spine, then the flair players like Grealish, Gil and Traore will have a big impact. Without wishing to labour the point, Sinclair and Gestede were big successes in that league, even poor players like Westwood may have a limited role to offer.
Couldn't agree more with that Ads, though I'm not sure about bringing in players now with next season in mind. If we bring in players and they improve the side then we could finish the season with some momentum and take it into next season. On the flip side, we could bring players in and they get dragged into the current malaise and end up shot to pieces as well. I would prefer a couple of quality loans to the end of the season who could lift the spirits of the better players already at the club and revisit the transfer market in the summer.
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Can't see Benteke lasting very long at Pool, still getting goals but looks a shadow of his best, Collins of all players dominated him on Saturday.
Collins tore Benteke a new one towards the back end of last season too
Keeping Dunne and selling Collins was a bad move from Lambert
Collins would a handy signing for us next season, doesnt get beaten in the air
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Tomd, I think the Noses game was very telling. Ayew's movement second half ripped them apart and couldn't live with our quick passing. They're pushing for promotion and offered nothing.
I get that there is no confidence at the moment, but I just cannot see why people think we will drop through the leagues. My previous post wasn't anything particularly novel, but highlighted a way and means of taking on that league and going for the title, which has to be the aim.
Financially, we are significantly stronger than any of the teams down there, so we will be capable of squad renewal to buy the firepower necessary.
The defence needs a lot of work and I think we should be aiming for a mixture of big, physical and experienced championship centre half with a blend of younger players capable of carrying on their development after promotion.
I'd start the work now. Next year's keeper, holding midfielder and centre half. If there are loan deals to be done then have a go, but I think we need to be bigger, stronger (dare I say snide) and faster. With players like Veretout, Amavi, Ayew supplemented by a new spine, then the flair players like Grealish, Gil and Traore will have a big impact. Without wishing to labour the point, Sinclair and Gestede were big successes in that league, even poor players like Westwood may have a limited role to offer.
How are we financially stronger? Fox has said that Lerner is still propping up the club, and this year we largely spent what we recouped on Benteke and Delph. When we go down, I think you'll see things start to get quite bleak on the financial front. Other than possibly Ayew, we don't have any saleable assets really.
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I've been thinking this for a while so I'll say it and run for cover. Next year we are going to need both nous and raw talent to get us anywhere near the play offs. In order to address the former, would it be completely remiss to look at the possibility of asking Gareth Barry to come back and sit in the middle (not literally) and guide the hopefully younger, less experienced team through the minefield that is the Championship? From what I can see, none of the current mob seem to have the required brains to do such a thing.
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I'm not too worried really. We have a lot of decent championship level players. We're like that horse that gets entered into the Derby and finishes last but is then dropped down in class and romps away with it - Not that we'll run away with it with the current squad but a good showing with a few players added isn't impossible
Now we know we'll lose the likes of N'zogbia Cole? a few more out of contract hopefully. Should free up some wages at least
Then you got the possible sells. Probably Ayew, a few of the other guys like gil or Traore who still have a value back in their home countries any maybe won't suit the championship or a new manager. May attract some interest for some of the other English players depending on how much their wages reduced for relegation clauses but really i wouldn't be worried about selling any of them
Likewise i wouldn't be too worried about who we keep. Think the defence would do okay in Championship with a bit of strengthening. I'd like Guzan and bacuna replaced though. A couple of experienced faces in midfield and up front the likes of Gestade can do it in the Championship if you play to his strengths. If Garde is still here i can see him being flogged but we still need a striker or two even if he stays.
Either way with a bit of confidence returning, and 4 or 5 players paid for by the departures we'll be there or thereabout's imho
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Tomd, I think the Noses game was very telling. Ayew's movement second half ripped them apart and couldn't live with our quick passing. They're pushing for promotion and offered nothing.
I get that there is no confidence at the moment, but I just cannot see why people think we will drop through the leagues. My previous post wasn't anything particularly novel, but highlighted a way and means of taking on that league and going for the title, which has to be the aim.
Financially, we are significantly stronger than any of the teams down there, so we will be capable of squad renewal to buy the firepower necessary.
Fair points. But, what if we go down with Sunderland and Newcastle? That will mean three big clubs, with financial firepower, big stadiums etc. fighting it out for three promotion places. Coming straight back up will not be straightforward no matter what way I look at it.
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I was watching Everton v Spurs this afternoon wondering exactly the same thing about Gareth Barry (Des Little, above).
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Three clubs like that in there would make it harder, but all threes income, despite being reduced would dwarf that of any of the outfits in there already, with the larger parachute payments and greater flexibility to incur losses within the rules.
I am sure all three of us would have contracts structured to take I to account relegaton as we have all been circling the rim for a while. It would make it harder, but then three do come up and given that all three are genuinely big clubs, unlike your average relegated sides like Wigan, Hull, Derby, QPR etc, I can't see how any of the likes of Ipswich et al could compete.
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Three clubs like that in there would make it harder, but all threes income, despite being reduced would dwarf that of any of the outfits in there already, with the larger parachute payments and greater flexibility to incur losses within the rules.
I am sure all three of us would have contracts structured to take I to account relegaton as we have all been circling the rim for a while. It would make it harder, but then three do come up and given that all three are genuinely big clubs, unlike your average relegated sides like Wigan, Hull, Derby, QPR etc, I can't see how any of the likes of Ipswich et al could compete.
There isn't really a reason the likes of us, Newcastle and Sunderland should be below the likes of Bournemouth, Watford, and Norwich, but we are. I think you underestimate just how badly we're run, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are no relegation clauses in contracts. This is the club that just gave the likes of Westwood and Bacuna new five year deals.
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
The Championship is utter gash though. Which helps. I couldn't quite believe how poor until I took a recent interest, even Derby are bilge.
We've beaten Bournemouth twice this year, so we know they're pap too and they won the bloody thing.
I'd be absolutely amazed if there weren't relegation clauses since we've evidently been preparing for this eventualiy for five years now.
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I think you underestimate just how badly we're run, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are no relegation clauses in contracts.
I'd be very surprised if there aren't. Most of these contracts have seemingly been sorted by Almstadt, and Arsenal put relegation clauses in all of their contracts. So I can't see why Arsenal would and Fox and Almstadt suddenly think that's a bad thing all of a sudden when they join a club where it might actually be relevant.
And even if there aren't, then this is one of the few benefits of having a squad commanding £30,000 per week rather than £65,000 per week.
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
Agreed that all three are badly run and are being shamed by clubs like Watford, Leicester and Southampton. I still think Sunderland and Newcastle would be better equipped than us to get their house in order in the championship. Both have more experience of recent relegations than we have and we should remember that our owner is absent/distant as well as incompetent.
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
Agreed that all three are badly run and are being shamed by clubs like Watford, Leicester and Southampton. I still think Sunderland and Newcastle would be better equipped than us to get their house in order in the championship. Both have more experience of recent relegations than we have and we should remember that our owner is absent/distant as well as incompetent.
Does Ellis Short go to many Sunderland matches?
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
The Championship is utter gash though. Which helps. I couldn't quite believe how poor until I took a recent interest, even Derby are bilge.
We've beaten Bournemouth twice this year, so we know they're pap too and they won the bloody thing.
I'd be absolutely amazed if there weren't relegation clauses since we've evidently been preparing for this eventualiy for five years now.
I think you underestimate how difficult it might well be next season. The majority of sides in The Championship will be organised, resilient & highly motivated to show any so-called big club(s) that wages & history mean nothing when your scrapping for points. There's some proper talent and canniness down there too, so our lot need to finally get their act together if we're to get back up where we think we belong.
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I think you underestimate just how badly we're run, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are no relegation clauses in contracts.
I'd be very surprised if there aren't. Most of these contracts have seemingly been sorted by Almstadt, and Arsenal put relegation clauses in all of their contracts. So I can't see why Arsenal would and Fox and Almstadt suddenly think that's a bad thing all of a sudden when they join a club where it might actually be relevant.
And even if there aren't, then this is one of the few benefits of having a squad commanding £30,000 per week rather than £65,000 per week.
Arsenal are an entirely different beast to Villa though. Players signing for Arsenal are going to see that they've qualified for the Champions League for the last squillion years, and happily sign a relegation clause, as relegation's about as likely as Yeovil winning the Champions League. When we were trying to get the likes of Veretout to pick us, it's surely not that strong a bargaining point to be stating that relegation is a possibility. If they had more offers than just Villa, why would they sign up to a possible pay cut? And if they have, surely that just makes it even more likely that anyone half decent will move on when we do go down. You might get Ayew to hang around if he's picking up his £40K a week still. If that's cut in half to £20K, he'll be out of it sharpish I'd wager.
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Any one who thinks these clowns have inserted relegation clauses in the contracts need to take a look at thier previous decisions.
I would bet money on it they have not.
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I don't believe they exist. What player in his right mind would agree to one ?
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I don't believe they exist. What player in his right mind would agree to one ?
the clubs that yo yo all have them as will newly promoted clubs.
So Newcastle Sunderland Norwich Bournemouth Watford Swansea would all have an advantage if they get relegated.
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I suppose I am alone in thinking this squad (minus the big earners like Richards who will be off) might actually be rather good in the Championship? After a season to gel together with the same manager?
Hey I can play the optimist card :)
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Of only it was as simple as that.
Relegation will mean the club in the eyes of the national press will cease to exist. Out of sight and out of mind.
There will be less income, undoubtedly lower attendances, fewer commercial deals because only want the gravy boat that is the Premier League, and a squad of players who are barely Championship standard.
Some would argue that the club deserves to go bankrupt.
i had similar thoughts re: bankruptcy. Is there any way we could do a dodgy one, like those timeshare / double glazing / financial services companies do- go bankrupt, fuck all of the shit players on lucrative contracts off and then just start afresh next season, with a new business name?
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I would appreciate answers to the following questions:
1. Was Nigel Pearson ever interviewed for the manager's role ?
2. Do we have any quality U21's who could gradually be brought into the first team during the rest of this season ?
3. Are there any signs that Garde is bringing more organisation into the team on the pitch?
4. So we get relegated, are there any positives for us to hang on to at the moment ?
5. Is it conceivable that we will do a Leeds?
6. Now and in the Championship we will need a manager who can get players welded into a real team and get them playing consistently to the best of their ability and beyond as did my hero Brian Clough and currently Eddie Howe - although early days, are there any indications that Garde will fit the bill ?
welcome to the forum!
1.) Probably not. Too much baggage at the time and lets be honest, most Villa fans thought he was a prick at the time, clearly that has now changed to some degree.
2.) Maybe. Hepburn Murphy is a good un I reckon.
3.) Yes I think there are. I would say obviously more than Sherwood although with less attacking intent.
4.) For me I am coming to terms with being a big fish in a smaller pond. I am trying to convince myself I can enjoy it :) I also think this suqad if we can keep most of it would do rather well in the Championship.
5.) Yes but unlikely. I know a Leeds fan, they were messed up in many more ways than we are and have been for some time.
6.) Not sure, I like Garde I hope he stays but the Championship is a different beast to many leagues. I have a hunch he is going to walk at the end of the season so it wont be a choice.
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I don't believe they exist. What player in his right mind would agree to one ?
They've been present in every footballer's contract that I've laid eyes on. Which while it isn't a huge number, it's probably in double figures.
With most of them it tends to be along the lines of "we go down, your wages are reduced by 30% (for example), most of the difference is then given back to you as a bonus in the event of promotion, on a sliding scale depending on how long that takes.
And because of the contracted drop in income, any club that is willing to offer what you consider a better contract, you are free to join them if they pay us £x".
So the drop in wages is there but also the freedom to leave if they're worth more than that.
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I think you underestimate just how badly we're run, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are no relegation clauses in contracts.
I'd be very surprised if there aren't. Most of these contracts have seemingly been sorted by Almstadt, and Arsenal put relegation clauses in all of their contracts. So I can't see why Arsenal would and Fox and Almstadt suddenly think that's a bad thing all of a sudden when they join a club where it might actually be relevant.
And even if there aren't, then this is one of the few benefits of having a squad commanding £30,000 per week rather than £65,000 per week.
Arsenal are an entirely different beast to Villa though. Players signing for Arsenal are going to see that they've qualified for the Champions League for the last squillion years, and happily sign a relegation clause, as relegation's about as likely as Yeovil winning the Champions League. When we were trying to get the likes of Veretout to pick us, it's surely not that strong a bargaining point to be stating that relegation is a possibility. If they had more offers than just Villa, why would they sign up to a possible pay cut? And if they have, surely that just makes it even more likely that anyone half decent will move on when we do go down. You might get Ayew to hang around if he's picking up his £40K a week still. If that's cut in half to £20K, he'll be out of it sharpish I'd wager.
I've more or less answered this above, but just to clarify, those other offers would also have had similar terms.
Leicester would have been putting those same clauses in Veretout's as we undoubtedly have. Sunderland would have been putting them in Richards'.
And you're right, having those clauses does mean it's more likely that Ayew and one or two others might clear off. Just one of the shit things about being relegated. But also the reason why players aren't that bothered about agreeing to them.
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I don't believe they exist. What player in his right mind would agree to one ?
They've been present in every footballer's contract that I've laid eyes on. Which while it isn't a huge number, it's probably in double figures.
With most of them it tends to be along the lines of "we go down, your wages are reduced by 30% (for example), most of the difference is then given back to you as a bonus in the event of promotion, on a sliding scale depending on how long that takes.
And because of the contracted drop in income, any club that is willing to offer what you consider a better contract, you are free to join them if they pay us £x".
So the drop in wages is there but also the freedom to leave if they're worth more than that.
That makes sense. I hope we make every effort to keep Vertout, Traore and Ayew.
I also hope despite his heading record, Gestede is sold.
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We are but at the same time we are rock bottom confidence wise. I genuinely think we 3 or 4 experienced players that will lead by example we will come back easily. Gestede needs confidence. He can score goals with service. Ayew will score if he stays. All about getting those 3-4 leaders through the spine.
Gestede is the worst footballer I have ever seen and the players think it to, just look Vs Sunderland they were getting towards the box but wouldn't pass to him or cross it in because they know it's pointless and all it'll do is give the ball away setting up a counter attack.
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Three clubs like that in there would make it harder, but all threes income, despite being reduced would dwarf that of any of the outfits in there already, with the larger parachute payments and greater flexibility to incur losses within the rules.
I am sure all three of us would have contracts structured to take I to account relegaton as we have all been circling the rim for a while. It would make it harder, but then three do come up and given that all three are genuinely big clubs, unlike your average relegated sides like Wigan, Hull, Derby, QPR etc, I can't see how any of the likes of Ipswich et al could compete.
Especially as Sunderland and Newcastle have managers with recent experience of that division (although I don't rate McLaren and think he will be gone from there by next season if not before).
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Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.
For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.
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Of only it was as simple as that.
Relegation will mean the club in the eyes of the national press will cease to exist. Out of sight and out of mind.
There will be less income, undoubtedly lower attendances, fewer commercial deals because only want the gravy boat that is the Premier League, and a squad of players who are barely Championship standard.
Some would argue that the club deserves to go bankrupt.
i had similar thoughts re: bankruptcy. Is there any way we could do a dodgy one, like those timeshare / double glazing / financial services companies do- go bankrupt, fuck all of the shit players on lucrative contracts off and then just start afresh next season, with a new business name?
I would guess that if you want to do a Rangers and drop out of the league altogether you could try it.
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Tomd, I think the Noses game was very telling. Ayew's movement second half ripped them apart and couldn't live with our quick passing. They're pushing for promotion and offered nothing.
I get that there is no confidence at the moment, but I just cannot see why people think we will drop through the leagues. My previous post wasn't anything particularly novel, but highlighted a way and means of taking on that league and going for the title, which has to be the aim.
Financially, we are significantly stronger than any of the teams down there, so we will be capable of squad renewal to buy the firepower necessary.
The defence needs a lot of work and I think we should be aiming for a mixture of big, physical and experienced championship centre half with a blend of younger players capable of carrying on their development after promotion.
I'd start the work now. Next year's keeper, holding midfielder and centre half. If there are loan deals to be done then have a go, but I think we need to be bigger, stronger (dare I say snide) and faster. With players like Veretout, Amavi, Ayew supplemented by a new spine, then the flair players like Grealish, Gil and Traore will have a big impact. Without wishing to labour the point, Sinclair and Gestede were big successes in that league, even poor players like Westwood may have a limited role to offer.
How are we financially stronger? Fox has said that Lerner is still propping up the club, and this year we largely spent what we recouped on Benteke and Delph. When we go down, I think you'll see things start to get quite bleak on the financial front. Other than possibly Ayew, we don't have any saleable assets really.
It might be my memory playing tricks, but wasn't there a statement from Robin Russel around the time that the last accounts were released that although the accounts showed a small loss (under £4M I think) that the club was now essentially self supporting?
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Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.
For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.
Newcastle stormed the championship after they were relegated. Lerner copies Ashley's model to some extent (buy cheap continental players and hopefully sell a few for large profit) which has resulted in Newcastle not pushing on and likely to go down with us. I don't relish that long term prospect.
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Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.
For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.
Newcastle stormed the championship after they were relegated. Lerner copies Ashley's model to some extent (buy cheap continental players and hopefully sell a few for large profit) which has resulted in Newcastle not pushing on and likely to go down with us. I don't relish that long term prospect.
I wouldn't want to follow their trajectory beat-by-beat, but when we go down, I'll happily take promoted after a season as champions followed by a comfortable mid-table finish, followed by a fifth place Premier League finish.
Hopefully we'd make better decisions than they did at that point, but their three seasons starting with their time in the Championship was probably the most fun that Newcastle fans have had in a decade.
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Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.
For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.
Newcastle stormed the championship after they were relegated. Lerner copies Ashley's model to some extent (buy cheap continental players and hopefully sell a few for large profit) which has resulted in Newcastle not pushing on and likely to go down with us. I don't relish that long term prospect.
I wouldn't want to follow their trajectory beat-by-beat, but when we go down, I'll happily take promoted after a season as champions followed by a comfortable mid-table finish, followed by a fifth place Premier League finish.
Hopefully we'd make better decisions than they did at that point, but their three seasons starting with their time in the Championship was probably the most fun that Newcastle fans have had in a decade.
They really screwed up by making it essentially a no brainer for Pardew to accept the offer from Palace. He might well have gone anyway, but the famous Geordie nation had made it clear he could disappear for all they cared and they were lucky it didn't happen a couple of weeks sooner.
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
The Championship is utter gash though. Which helps. I couldn't quite believe how poor until I took a recent interest, even Derby are bilge.
We've beaten Bournemouth twice this year, so we know they're pap too and they won the bloody thing.
I'd be absolutely amazed if there weren't relegation clauses since we've evidently been preparing for this eventualiy for five years now.
I think you underestimate how difficult it might well be next season. The majority of sides in The Championship will be organised, resilient & highly motivated to show any so-called big club(s) that wages & history mean nothing when your scrapping for points. There's some proper talent and canniness down there too, so our lot need to finally get their act together if we're to get back up where we think we belong.
Quality is what counts. You can be as organised as you like, hut if you don't have the quality to execute the plan either offensively or defensively, then it doesn't matter how many cliches are trotted out about that league.
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There may be some merit in that (Dave's post above) - although you hear it less these days, a lot of fans used to say that the old 3rd division season was one of the most enjoyable times following the Villa.
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Of only it was as simple as that.
Relegation will mean the club in the eyes of the national press will cease to exist. Out of sight and out of mind.
There will be less income, undoubtedly lower attendances, fewer commercial deals because only want the gravy boat that is the Premier League, and a squad of players who are barely Championship standard.
Some would argue that the club deserves to go bankrupt.
i had similar thoughts re: bankruptcy. Is there any way we could do a dodgy one, like those timeshare / double glazing / financial services companies do- go bankrupt, fuck all of the shit players on lucrative contracts off and then just start afresh next season, with a new business name?
I would guess that if you want to do a Rangers and drop out of the league altogether you could try it.
The Player wages have to be ring fenced according to league rules.he FA can give you a massive points deduction just for going into Administration.
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Tomd, I think the Noses game was very telling. Ayew's movement second half ripped them apart and couldn't live with our quick passing. They're pushing for promotion and offered nothing.
I get that there is no confidence at the moment, but I just cannot see why people think we will drop through the leagues. My previous post wasn't anything particularly novel, but highlighted a way and means of taking on that league and going for the title, which has to be the aim.
Financially, we are significantly stronger than any of the teams down there, so we will be capable of squad renewal to buy the firepower necessary.
The defence needs a lot of work and I think we should be aiming for a mixture of big, physical and experienced championship centre half with a blend of younger players capable of carrying on their development after promotion.
I'd start the work now. Next year's keeper, holding midfielder and centre half. If there are loan deals to be done then have a go, but I think we need to be bigger, stronger (dare I say snide) and faster. With players like Veretout, Amavi, Ayew supplemented by a new spine, then the flair players like Grealish, Gil and Traore will have a big impact. Without wishing to labour the point, Sinclair and Gestede were big successes in that league, even poor players like Westwood may have a limited role to offer.
I agree with much of this and your previous analysis. However, if we do retain players like Sinclair, Gestede and Westwood then has to be only for the specific purpose of getting us promoted. They're clearly not good enough for the premiership and if they're anywhere near a promoted squad then we'll undoubtedly struggle yet again.
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
The Championship is utter gash though. Which helps. I couldn't quite believe how poor until I took a recent interest, even Derby are bilge.
We've beaten Bournemouth twice this year, so we know they're pap too and they won the bloody thing.
I'd be absolutely amazed if there weren't relegation clauses since we've evidently been preparing for this eventualiy for five years now.
We managed to scrape home against Bournemouth in both games. The first when we had a much better team than now. If that's the standard needed to win the Championship we are a longway off.
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Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.
For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.
Newcastle stormed the championship after they were relegated. Lerner copies Ashley's model to some extent (buy cheap continental players and hopefully sell a few for large profit) which has resulted in Newcastle not pushing on and likely to go down with us. I don't relish that long term prospect.
Newcastle's problem was that they bought a load of foreign players who just saw them as a one season stepping stone. Remember Cisse's first season in English football? He was brilliant, yet when the move to Arsenal or Manchester United didn't materialise that summer, the interest in playing for Newcastle vanished. You might be able to get away with that if you have one player behaving like that, but when it is a large number of the team then you've got serious problems.
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I’ve seen enough in spits and spots to suggest that if we show any of the potential we have an can keep the core of our talent, whilst bombing out those stealing a living from us, we’ll pi** the division. Of course, this is based on the coaching teams’ ability to get the team playing more to its potential and to cut out the mistakes; this will be the priority for Garde from now until August.
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
Agreed that all three are badly run and are being shamed by clubs like Watford, Leicester and Southampton. I still think Sunderland and Newcastle would be better equipped than us to get their house in order in the championship. Both have more experience of recent relegations than we have and we should remember that our owner is absent/distant as well as incompetent.
Does Ellis Short go to many Sunderland matches?
No idea. Does he?
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
The Championship is utter gash though. Which helps. I couldn't quite believe how poor until I took a recent interest, even Derby are bilge.
We've beaten Bournemouth twice this year, so we know they're pap too and they won the bloody thing.
I'd be absolutely amazed if there weren't relegation clauses since we've evidently been preparing for this eventualiy for five years now.
We managed to scrape home against Bournemouth in both games. The first when we had a much better team than now. If that's the standard needed to win the Championship we are a longway off.
We beat them twice and deservedly so in both games. They were the best side in the Championship. It doesn't mean we will automatically romp the league, but its a bell weather that shows the quality isn't very good.
I certainly agree with your other post though that Westwood, Sinclair etc may have a use in the Championship, but agree that it should go no further following promotion.
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Although I agree with most of Ads comments under the above subject, I cannot agree with the following;
We will be the biggest club down there, with the biggest wage budget and likely one of the biggest transfer budgets too, depending on who joins us in the drop. The name Aston Villa holds currency, as would Newcastle, in a way Hull or QPR never will. Use this financial and physical size advantage to target players.
Yes we will probably have the biggest wage budget, unfortunately it will be used up paying the weekly wages to the turgid shite that we have on the books at the moment.
Sorry mate, but our name holds no currency in targeting players, paying well over the odds does.
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We're a big club, with a big name in this league. In the Championship, that counts further. If your a good player at say MK Dons and you're looking to move in the summer to a bigger club in the division. If Aston Villa are interested, then there is a good chance you'd jump through hoops to go there, in a way that you wouldn't for Hull, QPR or any of the other small teams that bob up and down in the leagues.
The same would apply to Newcastle and to a lesser extent Sunderland should they join us.
In respect of the wage issues, apart from Gabby, I cannot think of any big earners who contribute nothing being left. The wage eating non-providers like N'Zogbia, Cole, Senderos and Richardson will be gone. Richards may well leave, although he does play, so it would only be Gabby left unless I am mistaken.
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We're a big club, with a big name in this league. In the Championship, that counts further. If your a good player at say MK Dons and you're looking to move in the summer to a bigger club in the division. If Aston Villa are interested, then there is a good chance you'd jump through hoops to go there, in a way that you wouldn't for Hull, QPR or any of the other small teams that bob up and down in the leagues.
The same would apply to Newcastle and to a lesser extent Sunderland should they join us.
In respect of the wage issues, apart from Gabby, I cannot think of any big earners who contribute nothing being left. The wage eating non-providers like N'Zogbia, Cole, Senderos and Richardson will be gone. Richards may well leave, although he does play, so it would only be Gabby left unless I am mistaken.
As we have seen, it is much harder said than done, but I would want a proper clearout. I would like to see the following gone by or at the end of the season:
Guzan
Hutton
Lescott
Senderos
Baker
Richardson
Cole
Westwood
Sinclair
Agbonlahor
Kozak
N'Zogbia
I don't rate Gestede at all, but I think he could be useful in Championship, albeit in a cameo role. I would say to the above who are not out of contract in the summer that they are never going to play for the Villa again so can go ahead and find another club. Some of them wouldn't, so would have to be completely taken out of the picture.
Edit - I would add Sanchez to the above list as well.
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I think being the biggest name in the Championship is our biggest challenge.
Every match we play will be against opposition determined to claim our scalp. As things stand we don't have the players up for kind of fight.
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I think being the biggest name in the Championship is our biggest challenge.
Every match we play will be against opposition determined to claim our scalp. As things stand we don't have the players up for kind of fight.
'twas the case last time around and we got out at the first time of trying. I see no difference this time around. Both Newcastle and West Ham managed it and they are equally as big as us. If we can sort out the errors that are plaguing us right now and bomb out the trash, we'll walk the league.
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Rebuilding? - with what exactly, an absentee chairman, a back room staff poundland could out-manoeuvre, a manager who was at best a gamble and the worst crop of players in the clubs recent history - hardly the building blocks of a New golden-age for the club I'd wager.
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I think being the biggest name in the Championship is our biggest challenge.
Every match we play will be against opposition determined to claim our scalp. As things stand we don't have the players up for kind of fight.
'twas the case last time around and we got out at the first time of trying. I see no difference this time around. Both Newcastle and West Ham managed it and they are equally as big as us. If we can sort out the errors that are plaguing us right now and bomb out the trash, we'll walk the league.
Wash your mouth out!!
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Logic dictates that we're a big club and should piss the Championship next season.
However, the ability of the utter morons in charge of us to fuck everything up spectacularly badly cannot be underestimated.
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As we have seen, it is much harder said than done, but I would want a proper clearout. I would like to see the following gone by or at the end of the season:
Guzan
Hutton
Lescott
Senderos
Baker
Richardson
Cole
Westwood
Sinclair
Agbonlahor
Kozak
N'Zogbia
From what I gather they are trying to get rid of the last 3 on that list now.
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A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.
Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.
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A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.
Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.
Bringing in a good keeper and defensive midfielder would also help with that.
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A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.
Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.
I keep seeing people making this suggestion of a dedicated defensive coach but does such a thing actually exist? Does anyone have any examples of a successful one at any club? This is genuine ignorance on my part as the only time I can remember anybody making such an appointment was Kevin Keegan inventing a job for Mark Lawrenson at Newcastle 20 odd years ago with disappointing results.
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A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.
Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.
I keep seeing people making this suggestion of a dedicated defensive coach but does such a thing actually exist? Does anyone have any examples of a successful one at any club? This is genuine ignorance on my part as the only time I can remember anybody making such an appointment was Kevin Keegan inventing a job for Mark Lawrenson at Newcastle 20 odd years ago with disappointing results.
Wasn't O'Leary the defence coach at Leeds before he took over as manager?
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All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.
Agreed that all three are badly run and are being shamed by clubs like Watford, Leicester and Southampton. I still think Sunderland and Newcastle would be better equipped than us to get their house in order in the championship. Both have more experience of recent relegations than we have and we should remember that our owner is absent/distant as well as incompetent.
Does Ellis Short go to many Sunderland matches?
No idea. Does he?
I don't know. Hence the question.
Either he does and that would suggest that having the owner turn up doesn't magically solve all of your problems.
Or he doesn't and thus the massive disadvantage that he's worried we would have compared to Sunderland next season isn't actually a real thing.
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But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.
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But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.
Given his record keeping him away seems to me preferable to having him around. I cannot think of anything within his capabilities that might be improved by him being here in person.
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But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.
It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.
When their owner is no more visible than ours.
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But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.
It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.
When their owner is no more visible than ours.
And this point has been made before. What about Sheik Mansour or Joe Lewis? Are they any more present than Randy Lerner? Or is it just that they have 1)made much better decisions in hiring the right people, and certainly 2) in the case of Man City have significantly greater resources to overcome any bad decisions they make, get better and better managers/players etc.
Ultimately the point being if Randy was here all the time the decisions that have been made would still have been made. He'd still have hired Alex McLeish or Tim Sherwood. That he is physically in New York most of the time makes no difference at all. He hires the people, he likely has last call on most major initiatives and all of the good decisions he has made (and he has made some) have been crushed beneath the weight of the numerous bad ones. His presence day to day at the club or lack thereof is irrelevant.
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But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.
It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.
When their owner is no more visible than ours.
When you're performing poorly and as abject as we are then yes, you need to be at least seen to be at the tiller. When things are going well then its less important to be visible. When the club lurch from one monumental error to the next psychologically to see the captain at the helm could galvanise and even calm.
The comparison with other clubs is redundant as we're not other clubs. They have a different set of circumstances to us so whether John Bloggs is at Sunderland, Norwich, or whoever, during the week is totally irrelevant. That Randy Lerner isn't, isn't.
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But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.
It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.
When their owner is no more visible than ours.
When you're performing poorly and as abject as we are then yes, you need to be at least seen to be at the tiller. When things are going well then its less important to be visible.
Which of those two situations do you feel describes Sunderland at the moment?
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We're a big club, with a big name in this league. In the Championship, that counts further. If your a good player at say MK Dons and you're looking to move in the summer to a bigger club in the division. If Aston Villa are interested, then there is a good chance you'd jump through hoops to go there, in a way that you wouldn't for Hull, QPR or any of the other small teams that bob up and down in the leagues.
The same would apply to Newcastle and to a lesser extent Sunderland should they join us.
In respect of the wage issues, apart from Gabby, I cannot think of any big earners who contribute nothing being left. The wage eating non-providers like N'Zogbia, Cole, Senderos and Richardson will be gone. Richards may well leave, although he does play, so it would only be Gabby left unless I am mistaken.
As we have seen, it is much harder said than done, but I would want a proper clearout. I would like to see the following gone by or at the end of the season:
Guzan
Hutton
Lescott
Senderos
Baker
Richardson
Cole
Westwood
Sinclair
Agbonlahor
Kozak
N'Zogbia
I don't rate Gestede at all, but I think he could be useful in Championship, albeit in a cameo role. I would say to the above who are not out of contract in the summer that they are never going to play for the Villa again so can go ahead and find another club. Some of them wouldn't, so would have to be completely taken out of the picture.
Edit - I would add Sanchez to the above list as well.
Cole, Zog, Senderos, Richardson are all out of contract - http://astonvillacentral.com/squad/contracts/
those with one year left on their deals shouldnt be too much of an issue to shift on the cheap
only players I would keep are Grealish, Clark, Westwood, Ayew, Veretout and Amavi
Sinclair and Gestede have previously smashed up the championship so might be worth keeping
dont think the likes of Traore, Gil and Gueye will have the bottle for wet nights in Rotherham, definitely cant see Traore and Gueye staying on. I expect they will be looking for loans back to Spain and France.
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But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.
It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.
When their owner is no more visible than ours.
I know that when I google Sunderland they seem to have a more involved owner. The point is all three are badly run clubs but villa fans have been complaining about Lerner's lack of leadership and visibility for years. We can nit pick and reduce it to whether or not attendance at games would make a difference but the overarching point is the guy at the helm has seemed detached while we have been in decline from 2010. Perhaps he would have been more alarmed during the early stages of the decline had he been more involved and at games.
Moreover, we need to remember that we have fallen from a greater height than either Newcastle or Sunderland. Our custodians have seen us go from premier league ever presents and regular top six finishes to a club that stands on 8 points after 20 games. Therefore I stand by my original point that we would be at a disadvantage if relegated alongside them given the rate of our decline under Lerner and the lack of nous at the club as evidenced in the Tom Fox thread today.
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Short doesn't go to many Sunderland games no. Apparently turns up for local derbies and the odd game in London.
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Short doesn't go to many Sunderland games no. Apparently turns up for local derbies and the odd game in London.
More than Randy then.
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Have long beleived that the physcological side of football coaching is much under used ... some managers play at it ... its no co incidence that when Timmy appointed Ciaran Cosgrove we put in some decent performances.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-tim-sherwood-introduces-9095684
He was formally appointed ahead of the Liverpool Semi and if stories are to beleived had a great effect on Grealish encouraging him to look around the whole pitch before the game when others were standing in one spot ... inference was that he was going to grace the whole pitch not just part of it.
Its no coincidence either that performances have dropped after Cosgrove was dumped as part of the cost cutting. The exact timing of his arrival and departure may may interesting reading.
Our players may not be worldies but they can certainly play better that they have been playing. Footballers like any sportmen and women thrive on confidence... look at Leicester.
Apart from a few self destruct moments we havent been smashed 5 or 6 like many teams in our position have been in previous years...this leads me to think that it wouldnt take a massive amount of work to convert our squad into a mid table boringly average side from where we are now.
The only blot on this theory is we would still be left with Hutton and Richardson who are just plain gash.
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A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.
Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.
I keep seeing people making this suggestion of a dedicated defensive coach but does such a thing actually exist? Does anyone have any examples of a successful one at any club? This is genuine ignorance on my part as the only time I can remember anybody making such an appointment was Kevin Keegan inventing a job for Mark Lawrenson at Newcastle 20 odd years ago with disappointing results.
Personally I think that the best defensive coach in my life time has been the late departed Don Howe. You only have to look at what he did with the defence at Arsenal and, more important, with England's defence to see the impact he made.
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A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.
Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.
I keep seeing people making this suggestion of a dedicated defensive coach but does such a thing actually exist? Does anyone have any examples of a successful one at any club? This is genuine ignorance on my part as the only time I can remember anybody making such an appointment was Kevin Keegan inventing a job for Mark Lawrenson at Newcastle 20 odd years ago with disappointing results.
Personally I think that the best defensive coach in my life time has been the late departed Don Howe. You only have to look at what he did with the defence at Arsenal and, more important, with England's defence to see the impact he made.
I completely agree on Don Howe. A much underrated coach, with a strong focus on defence. Gary Neville speaks very highly of him from his days with England.
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I often think someone like Keown would make a good defensive coach. We need someone to at least get the back 4 organised. From reports it is essentially what Steve Round was wanted for by Garde, so there was clearly some thinking. Ray is apparently more forwards and Garde was a midfielder himself, Duverne is a fitness coach and as much as I like Tony Parks for his touchline madness whether he is actually an effective goalkeeping coach is open to debate. But I do think we need some sort of specialist to work with the back 4.