Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: sab879 on July 23, 2015, 06:17:04 PM
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For me it has to be Roger Federer .
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Think we did this a while ago and all agreed it was Derek Pringle.
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Don Bradman or Eddie the Eagle.
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Sir Steve Redgrave or the Don
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Rocky Marciano
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Fabian Delph
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Got to be Bradman, just for being so far ahead of any of his peers.
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Hard to judge "ever" so I'll go best in my lifetime.
Shane Warne.
Brian Lara.
Usain Bolt.
Although I think Messi will eventually go down as the Greatest ever sportsman.
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Bradman by an absolute mile. His average is a ridiculous amount better than anyone else's and he played on uncovered pitches.
It's like Usain Bolt running the hundred metres in six seconds, after someone has put treacle sponge all over the track.
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All round sportsman or the best there's been at an particular sport?
My answers are............
Category 1 - Jim Thorpe* (runner up, Bo Jackson)
Category 2 - The Don (runners up, The Babe and Jim Brown)
* he won Olympic gold medals for the 1912 pentathlon and decathlon, played American football (collegiate and professional), and also played professional baseball and basketball
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Jack Nicklaus 18 majors and 19 times runners up is astonishing
Hard to argue against Muhammed Ali though
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Jack Nicklaus 18 majors and 19 times runners up is astonishing
Hard to argue against Muhammed Ali though
Both great shouts but Ali edges it as he'd beat the crap out of Nicklaus.
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Phil "the power" Taylor
Runner up Cliff Werbenuick
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Phil "the power" Taylor
Runner up Cliff Werbenuick
As he grinds his way past the sixteenth can of Carlsberg!
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If this were, 'greatest sportsperson' then Navratilova would be in with a shout!
Since it isn't, I suggest Jesse Owens.
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Isn't it Bill Werbeniuk?
I'll go Emil Zatopek.
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If this were, 'greatest sportsperson' then Navratilova would be in with a shout!
Since it isn't, I suggest Jesse Owens.
My wife has just said Jesse Owens as well.
We named our boy 1 Jesse, he's 1 now. We get some mad looks when we say "Jesse". Poor bugger is gonna get ribbed at school.
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All round would be AB de Villiers or CB Fry.
At any one sport surely must be Bradman.
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Another one for Donald Bradman. His average is just staggering, especially when considering how the averages of some of the other genuine greats are nowhere near his.
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Michael Jordan.
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Gehrig, Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, Gebrselassie, Zatopek, Merckx, Blankers-Koen, Serena Williams, Mick Quinn.
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Gehrig, Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, Gebrselassie, Zatopek, Merckx, Blankers-Koen, Serena Williams, Mick Quinn.
He was no Wally Pipp
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Bradman, Zatopek, Owens and Ali for me.
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Gehrig, Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, Gebrselassie, Zatopek, Merckx, Blankers-Koen, Serena Williams, Mick Quinn.
He was no Wally Pipp
If ever a man regretted taking a day off sick, it's Wally.
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If anyone else could walk down every street in the world and get mobbed, the answer might not be Muhammed Ali.
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Depends on how you quantify 'greatest'.
Statistically it's probably Bradman. Showman and popularity wise it's Ali. Longevity and consistency wise its probably Jack Nicklaus. Lifting a team to achieve results by sheer presence then it's Michael Jordan.
Interestingly no mention yet of Floyd Mayweather - highest paid sportsman of all time.
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Can a mod add a poll from the nominations we've had so far?
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Owens was the first thing to jump in my head when I saw the thread. The videos of Ali on YouTube are incredible.
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Ali by a mile
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Francis Benali?
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Shorty Krantz
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Sebastian Coe - 4 Olympic medals (2 gold, 2 silver) 12 outdoor world records (3 in 41 days in 1979) - a great athlete.
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Sebastian Coe - 4 Olympic medals (2 gold, 2 silver) 12 outdoor world records (3 in 41 days in 1979) - a great athlete.
His London Olympic legacy needs to be taken into consideration and the fact he's a close friend of William Hague. He's disqualified.
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To have an international batting average of over 99 is just so unreal, my word it just have to be Donald Bradman.
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To have an international batting average of over 99 is just so unreal, my word it just have to be Donald Bradman.
Yes, but could he bowl? ;-)
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Ali by a mile
I will make that a thousand miles!
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To have an international batting average of over 99 is just so unreal, my word it just have to be Donald Bradman.
Yes, but could he bowl? ;-)
That's why Babe Ruth will never be surpassed as the greatest Baseball player of all time. He was the best hitter and he was one of the best pitchers.
With regard to The Don v Ali v Golden Bear, i think that Bradman is better than the next best batsman by a greater margin than Ali is from the next boxer (no idea who that would be) and than Nicklaus is from the next golfer (Eldrick)
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My dad watched an awful lot of cricket and the closest he had to a hero was Don Bradman, said he was by far the greatest batsman he ever saw. Len Hutton was second!
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Ali, by the proverbial.
Gary Sobers for his all-round skills.
Bradman, of course, wouldn't even have had a career if Eric Hollies had been twenty years younger...
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Michael Jordan
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Ali, by the proverbial.
Gary Sobers for his all-round skills.
Bradman, of course, wouldn't even have had a career if Eric Hollies had been twenty years younger...
a group of Hollies' relatives were due to be at Edgbaston tomorrow
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Michael Jordan
not even the best basketball player.
Magic was better
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Best ever players in the sports I'm interested in......
Baseball - Babe Ruth
NFL - Jim Brown
Football - Lionel Messi
Rugby Union - Gareth Edwards
Ice Hockey - Wayne Gretsky
Basketball - Magic Johnson
Golf - Jack Nicklaus
Cricket - Don Bradman
Cycling - Miguel Indurain
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British- Daley Thompson, Chris Hoy, Martin Johnson
World- Ali, Bolt, Carl Lewis, Nicklaus, Weissmuller, Merckx
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Teaching A Level PE, the kids and I have this discussion every year. Interesting they used to vote on mass for Lance Armstrong, mainly based on the LiveStrong appeal I think...
Personally I'd go The Don, Ali, Jack as icons of their sports and throw in Daley Thompson, Ed Moses, CB Fry (his story is brill), Maradona, Schumacher, Warne AP McCoy and Lester Piggott. It's difficult to define as Phil Taylor could be added as well as Ronnie O'Sullivan.
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Best ever players in the sports I'm interested in......
Baseball - Babe Ruth
NFL - Jim Brown
Football - Lionel Messi
Rugby Union - Gareth Edwards
Ice Hockey - Wayne Gretsky
Basketball - Magic Johnson
Golf - Jack Nicklaus
Cricket - Don Bradman
Cycling - Miguel Indurain
Not sure I can agree on the rugby one, he was a fantastic player but I wouldn't say clearly the best of all time. I think Johnno has to be in the discussion (possibly the best captain ever, in any sport) and I'd also look at Campese, Carter, Brooke and Hill(who was the hero of the England team of that era but got absolutely no credit). I'd like to get a couple of front row players in as well but given I don't know the dark arts all that well I don't think I could judge them.
Cricket my concern is that, as with any sport, Bradman being so long ago makes it difficult to judge him against modern players so I think it's less clear cut than raw averages suggest. The bodyline series saw his average at a much more reasonable 56 and that was the result of a genuine plan to upset him, in the last 30 years a bowling plan against a decent batsman has become standard. Add to that the sheer amount of footage available to review and the number of games played means players know so much more about each other now so it could be that Lara or Tendulkar in that era may have been just as dominant as he was.
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The only contender to Gareth Edwards for me is Michael Jones
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The only contender to Gareth Edwards for me is Michael Jones
I think you have to include some of the England 2003 WC side, they're probably the best team ever in RU, 42wins in 47 from the end of the 99 WC until they lifted the trophy and a points difference for that period averaged as a winning margin of about 25 per game. I think we have a habit of dismissing just how good English teams/players are for fear of being biased.
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Ali for his athleticism.I can imagine him prospering in other sports.
Merckx dominated all formats of road cycling but the best cyclist and British sportsperson for me would be Beryl Burton. World champion on road and track.British champion every year for 25 years.Beat all the men in establishing a British time trial record and offered a liquorice all sort to her nearest male rival when overtaking him.Towards the end of her career was beaten into second place by her daughter.Beryl refused to shake her daughter's hand and give her a lift home,making her cycle back.Beryl complained that her daughter had not done her fair share of pace setting.
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Ow bist claretandbeer......... Orffside !!!!!!!
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Ow bist claretandbeer......... Orffside !!!!!!!
Sorry,Didn't know you spoke German.
Forgot to include the missus and myself for rowing.
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"Ow bist" is a friendly Forest of Dean greeting
Haven't you ever noticed that I don't exactly sound like most of you lot
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"Ow bist" is a friendly Forest of Dean greeting
Haven't you ever noticed that I don't exactly sound like most of you lot
It's also Olde Yam.
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No cyclists should be included in this list for three reasons:
(i) they're all cheats
(ii) we've already established that the correct answer is Don Bradman
(iii) Bradman wasn't a cyclist.
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The only contender to Gareth Edwards for me is Michael Jones
I think you have to include some of the England 2003 WC side, they're probably the best team ever in RU, 42wins in 47 from the end of the 99 WC until they lifted the trophy and a points difference for that period averaged as a winning margin of about 25 per game. I think we have a habit of dismissing just how good English teams/players are for fear of being biased.
Nope, I dismiss them because they're not as good
The 2003 England RWC side is one of the best teams that I've seen but I don't think that it had any all time great players. Wilkinson wasn't even close to Barry John or Dan Carter
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For those of us fortunate to have been there - Johann Cruyff must be up there - that night at Villa Park when he showed how good he was for 80 minutes - was the best I've witnessed.
I would also throw a curve ball into the argument - Oscar Pistorius - before he blew away his chances. What he overcame to compete with the world's best able bodied athletes was remarkable. Pity he didn't appreciate the socks his girlfriend bought him.
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It's gotta be Bradman, it a world driven by stats he is nearly twice as good as his nearest competitor.
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The only contender to Gareth Edwards for me is Michael Jones
I think you have to include some of the England 2003 WC side, they're probably the best team ever in RU, 42wins in 47 from the end of the 99 WC until they lifted the trophy and a points difference for that period averaged as a winning margin of about 25 per game. I think we have a habit of dismissing just how good English teams/players are for fear of being biased.
Nope, I dismiss them because they're not as good
The 2003 England RWC side is one of the best teams that I've seen but I don't think that it had any all time great players. Wilkinson wasn't even close to Barry John or Dan Carter
As I say, Johnno is probably the best captain ever, he led what you yourself call one of the best teams you've ever seen and Richard Hill is the best 6 of all time by a long way, he was the destroyer in that team and he did it so utterly brilliantly that no one noticed him. Further back Wilkinson and Carter are, in my opinion, the 2 best 10s and there's the width of a gnat's bollock between them, without the injuries though it wouldn't be a debate, Wilkinson lost almost the entire 'peak' of his career to fucked shoulders because he was so aggressive in the tackle, his swansong at Toulon showed just how brilliant he was. Robinson would be in the debate as well if he'd spent his whole career in union, but reaching the peak of the game in both formats is impressive in itself.
Sorry for sidelining this into a rugby discussion but it's the one sport I feel I can genuinely offer major input on.
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The only contender to Gareth Edwards for me is Michael Jones
Richie McCaw. Better than Michael Jones.
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Richard Hill wouldn't be in my top three blind side flankers.
There's Schalk Burger and Reuben Thorne who were better for a start.
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Michael Jordan
not even the best basketball player.
Magic was better
Can't agree with you there. Magic had a greater all-round skillset on offense, but Jordan made up for that by being a far superior scorer, while being a pretty good passer himself; while on the defensive end, Jordan was miles better (Magic never made an All-Defensive team even though superstars often receive a couple of nominations by default.) Also, if you look at any of the advanced metrics (PER, WS/48, box score plus-minus, VORP), MJ rates out better, both in regular season and playoffs.
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Mohammed Ali of course! (and Eric Djemba Djemba may be?)
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CB Fry.
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Also, if you look at any of the advanced metrics (PER, WS/48, box score plus-minus, VORP), MJ rates out better, both in regular season and playoffs.
Nope, not a word.
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Also, if you look at any of the advanced metrics (PER, WS/48, box score plus-minus, VORP), MJ rates out better, both in regular season and playoffs.
Nope, not a word.
Worryingly, I understand this
I still go with Magic. However, give it a couple more years and Lebron may pass them both.
Magic and Lebron are the only two players I can think of who could be All-Star calibre at all positions 1 thro' 5
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Boxing : Tyson & Sugar Ray Leonard were streets above Ali
Cricket : viv Richards
Golf : Tiger
Tennis : Roger
F1 : Schumakker
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I really don't think I'd like to inhabit a planet where Mike Tyson and Sugar Ray Leonard are regarded as better boxers than Muhammed Ali, or Tiger Woods a better golfer than Jack Nicklaus.
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I don't know enough about golf to comment but surely Marciano (zero defeats) was way better than Ali who, even if we ignore the losses in his later career when his health was in decline, still lost to Ken Norton and Joe Frazier when he was at or close to his peak?
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I don't know enough about golf to comment but surely Marciano (zero defeats) was way better than Ali who, even if we ignore the losses in his later career when his health was in decline, still lost to Ken Norton and Joe Frazier when he was at or close to his peak?
Nowhere close. Marciano was a slugger who was around at a time when the heavyweight scene was poor. He won the title from Jersey Joe Walcott, who until 1994 was the oldest man to win it, and only defended six times.
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He did win loads of fights before becoming World Champion though, including against Joe Louis.
Does being a "slugger" negate his achievements? Using a football analogy, the Dutch have often had a more elegant style of football than (West) Germany but there is no real debate as to which is the "greater" football nation.
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It is quite difficult to judge across decades and generations . Who is "the best" is so subjective as well as dealing with stats and facts and the impact of time upon sport.
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He did win loads of fights before becoming World Champion though, including against Joe Louis.
Does being a "slugger" negate his achievements? Using a football analogy, the Dutch have often had a more elegant style of football than (West) Germany but there is no real debate as to which is the "greater" football nation.
Joe Louis was so far past it when he lost to Marciano he almost caught up with it again.
Being a slugger is no bad thing, but it does mean that he had no other way of fighting, and he also had a style that would have led him to being disqualified in more enlightened times.
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Okay then. Pound for pound... isn't Mayweather the best ever? Admittedly he fought Pacquiao past his best but he's still fought shitloads of superstars at various weights and never lost. I don't like him, his record is undeniably amazing though.
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Okay then. Pound for pound... isn't Mayweather the best ever? Admittedly he fought Pacquiao past his best but he's still fought shitloads of superstars at various weights and never lost. I don't like him, his record is undeniably amazing though.
No, that's Sugar Ray Robinson.
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Also, if you look at any of the advanced metrics (PER, WS/48, box score plus-minus, VORP), MJ rates out better, both in regular season and playoffs.
Nope, not a word.
Worryingly, I understand this
I still go with Magic. However, give it a couple more years and Lebron may pass them both.
Magic and Lebron are the only two players I can think of who could be All-Star calibre at all positions 1 thro' 5
I guess it comes down to stylistic preference in the end. For me, I just don't consider positional versatility to be the primary factor when it comes to deciding who's the greatest overall player in most sports. I just think Jordan's ability to play just the one position is phenomenal enough to beat out the advantage you get from Magic being able to play anywhere at a high level (again, only really an offensive advantage: I suspect he would have been exposed defensively by plenty of centers)
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He did win loads of fights before becoming World Champion though, including against Joe Louis.
Does being a "slugger" negate his achievements? Using a football analogy, the Dutch have often had a more elegant style of football than (West) Germany but there is no real debate as to which is the "greater" football nation.
Joe Louis was so far past it when he lost to Marciano he almost caught up with it again.
Being a slugger is no bad thing, but it does mean that he had no other way of fighting, and he also had a style that would have led him to being disqualified in more enlightened times.
I'm not going to suggest Sonny Liston as the greatest ever boxer but without the external forces, I couldn't see Ali beating him in his prime.
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Also, if you look at any of the advanced metrics (PER, WS/48, box score plus-minus, VORP), MJ rates out better, both in regular season and playoffs.
Nope, not a word.
Worryingly, I understand this
I still go with Magic. However, give it a couple more years and Lebron may pass them both.
Magic and Lebron are the only two players I can think of who could be All-Star calibre at all positions 1 thro' 5
I guess it comes down to stylistic preference in the end. For me, I just don't consider positional versatility to be the primary factor when it comes to deciding who's the greatest overall player in most sports. I just think Jordan's ability to play just the one position is phenomenal enough to beat out the advantage you get from Magic being able to play anywhere at a high level (again, only really an offensive advantage: I suspect he would have been exposed defensively by plenty of centers)
A case could also be made for Wilt and Oscar
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Boxing : Tyson & Sugar Ray Leonard were streets above Ali
Cricket : viv Richards
Golf : Tiger
Tennis : Roger
F1 : Schumakker
That's the problem with these threads. Other than being entirely subjective generational shifts mean we really cannot judge empirically or objectively. ali better than Sugar Ray Robinson or Joe Louis? Who knows? Richards better than Bradman? Nickalus better than Snead or Nelson? Schumacher (or Senna) better than Fangio? Federer better than, erm, yeah, probably give you that one (unless Djovokic fans put their man forward)
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Interesting question
So far all answers appear to be based on winners
One (not definitive) definition of sportsman
a person who exhibits qualities especially esteemed in those who engage in sports, as fairness, courtesy, good temper, etc
For me it would be Jack Nicklaus.........conceding putt to Tony Jacklin, gracious in defeat and courteous when winning
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Sorry Des, it's all about winning.
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Not Serena Williams as the media would have us think.