Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kipeye on March 16, 2015, 05:04:21 PM
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Forgive me if anyone has said this but I think the credit for our upturn in fortune is probably due to him.
I have a feeling he backed Lambert as any incoming CO would be expected to do and when this seemed like it was going to take us down persuaded Randy that a change was necessary and had a plan in mind.
No more drawn out affairs to pick a new guy, tied up very quickly-he must have spoken in advance with Timmy for him to visit so publicly. Yes something of a gamble, but seems to have picked the right character of person that was needed.
A lot of people have said many of the problems were compounded by the inexperience of our Board and management. I sense this is now rapidly going to change. We still have a long way to go and might still suffer the drop, but it is the first time we have seen positive actions translated to results on the pitch.
Keep up the good word Foxy.
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Not sure how much can be attributed to him just yet. I think given that we had dropped into the bottom 3, that even Randy figured it was time to act on Fox. I'm glad things with Sherwood have worked out so far and his gut instinct so far has been proven correct. Let's hope in the summer he completes some great commercial deals in addition to building the boardroom structure at the club. He's certainly come across as very smart and quite astute so far.
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Forgive me if anyone has said this but I think the credit for our upturn in fortune is probably due to him.
Let's wait till we are clear of relegation and have won the FA cup before we hang garlands around his neck!
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Who's the big fella with glasses on the bench next to Tim? Maybe everything is down to him. He looks like a boss.
As for Tom and his false narratives, keep sweating for us buddy.
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Who's the big fella with glasses on the bench next to Tim? Maybe everything is down to him. He looks like a boss.
As for Tom and his false narratives, keep sweating for us buddy.
Tony Parks
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Who's the big fella with glasses on the bench next to Tim? Maybe everything is down to him. He looks like a boss.
As for Tom and his false narratives, keep sweating for us buddy.
Tony Parks innit?
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Ta, must have missed news of his appointment. Goalkeeping coach then. Couldn't work out what his function was.
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Ta, must have missed news of his appointment. Goalkeeping coach then. Couldn't work out what his function was.
Seems to be more than that, possibly chief cheer leader
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
Yep. Which is why I'm giving it a little while to judge. It could have been an hangover of deals in the summer, (Lambert survived for a reason,) and out of Fox's hands but lets see how the next year and a bit pans out.
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
he was, but then again he was new in his job. The big boss comes out and says he wants to give his mate a new deal, the new boy in the office isn't going to have a ton of pull so early on. I imagine over time though Fox was able to convince Lerner to "rethink" the decision and made easier as we slipped quietly and conveniently into the bottom 3.
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Fox had only been there a month or so and contracts aren't usually an overnight thing. It wouldn't surprise me if the club had been working on the contract before Fox officially joined. When the relevant accounts come out, it will be interesting to see what compensation Lambert gets because there might have been a clause about being in the bottom 3.
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We'll never know for sure, but given how the timings around Faulkner's departure, Foxes arrival and Lamberts new contract fit together it doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility that
Faulkner left because he wanted Lambert out and Lerner had decided to stick by him.
Fox arrives with a list of things to take care of waiting on his desk including a message from his boss to sort out the new contract for Lambert
Contract gets sorted.
Fox spends the next 6 months wondering what Lerner was smoking when he gave the instruction for the new contract or checking to make sure that he hadn't missed "Under no circumstances" from the message that said "give Lambert a new contract"
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I'm absolutely convinced there was a clause about being in the bottom three, duly triggered then boom!
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
he was, but then again he was new in his job. The big boss comes out and says he wants to give his mate a new deal, the new boy in the office isn't going to have a ton of pull so early on. I imagine over time though Fox was able to convince Lerner to "rethink" the decision and made easier as we slipped quietly and conveniently into the bottom 3.
It's easy to speak with hindsight, but I still think the decision to sack Lambert should have come earlier.
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
he was, but then again he was new in his job. The big boss comes out and says he wants to give his mate a new deal, the new boy in the office isn't going to have a ton of pull so early on. I imagine over time though Fox was able to convince Lerner to "rethink" the decision and made easier as we slipped quietly and conveniently into the bottom 3.
It's easy to speak with hindsight, but I still think the decision to sack Lambert should have come earlier.
I think we all wished it had. We'll never know why it didn't and as some are suggesting maybe there was a bottom 3 clause. Then again, given that he just signed a new contract on the back of 4 magnificent games, why would the club even write that in, or indeed Lambert accept having it in? My own opinion, it was a prolonged run of misery that saw us slip into the relegation zone, and that was just a step too far, even for his biggest backer.
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
he was, but then again he was new in his job. The big boss comes out and says he wants to give his mate a new deal, the new boy in the office isn't going to have a ton of pull so early on. I imagine over time though Fox was able to convince Lerner to "rethink" the decision and made easier as we slipped quietly and conveniently into the bottom 3.
It's easy to speak with hindsight, but I still think the decision to sack Lambert should have come earlier.
I think we all wished it had. We'll never know why it didn't and as some are suggesting maybe there was a bottom 3 clause. Then again, given that he just signed a new contract on the back of 4 magnificent games, why would the club even write that in, or indeed Lambert accept having it in? My own opinion, it was a prolonged run of misery that saw us slip into the relegation zone, and that was just a step too far, even for his biggest backer.
I'd go with that.
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
he was, but then again he was new in his job. The big boss comes out and says he wants to give his mate a new deal, the new boy in the office isn't going to have a ton of pull so early on. I imagine over time though Fox was able to convince Lerner to "rethink" the decision and made easier as we slipped quietly and conveniently into the bottom 3.
It's easy to speak with hindsight, but I still think the decision to sack Lambert should have come earlier.
I think we all wished it had. We'll never know why it didn't and as some are suggesting maybe there was a bottom 3 clause. Then again, given that he just signed a new contract on the back of 4 magnificent games, why would the club even write that in, or indeed Lambert accept having it in? My own opinion, it was a prolonged run of misery that saw us slip into the relegation zone, and that was just a step too far, even for his biggest backer.
I'd go with that.
Makes sense, though it is sobering to think that if we had been hovering around the bottom three rather than in it, then he could still be in charge now.
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Fox only sacked Lambert because I emailed and told him...fact
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Sacking a manager in time to leave plenty of time to turn things around is only half the job. You still have to appoint a decent replacement. It is no good sacking a manager 'early doors' in the season and then appointing Billy McNeill for example.
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I suspect there is an element of Fox saying to Randy something along the lines of, 'Look, you've asked me to come in and run the place and you want to take a step back. So let me get on with running it.'
Pushing the boss, who is also mates with your boss, out the door, puts down a marker. It says he's in charge now.
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Thinking about it, keeping Lambert on for as long as we did ( against most fans' wishes) probably saved us from appointing Pulis. By the time Lerner saw sense, the Albion had already signed him up. More by luck than judgement, but we really dodged a bullet there
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I don't understand why did Fox came out in his only public offering with that management blurb about false narratives - hardly the average fan's language. It was a fairly emphatic and ill judged backing for Lambert. One which was reversed not all that long after.
I'm not giving him too much credit for sacking Lambert, nor it appears the contract extension. Many of us wanted Lambert sacked last summer.
I'll reserve judgement on his performance when we e.g. see the increase, comparatively speaking, in revenue streams, against our peers, sustainable increased attendances (the two aren't mutually exclusive) and less of the aforementioned management blurb.
Let's see where we are in another 2 years and see how much we can attribute progress to him.
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I don't understand why did Fox came out in his only public offering with that management blurb about false narratives - hardly the average fan's language. It was a fairly emphatic and ill judged backing for Lambert. One which was reversed not all that long after.
To me it's fairly clear, in hindsight, that was his 'vote of confidence' publicly back your manager, stating that a change of manager at that time wasn't necessarily going to fix everything but then be seen at games with the guy who eventually replaced him. It was lst chance saloon and I think the players realised that and they didn't have it in them to save him.
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Maybe - and this is just a wild guess - that after two of the previous three managers including Lambert's guru ended up taking us for serious amounts of compensation and the third didn't do too badly out of being sacked, Tom & Randy wanted to make sure that he had absolutely no unfair dismissal comebacks.
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Thinking about it, keeping Lambert on for as long as we did ( against most fans' wishes) probably saved us from appointing Pulis. By the time Lerner saw sense, the Albion had already signed him up. More by luck than judgement, but we really dodged a bullet there
I imagine our mate Gregory vehemently disagrees with that. Because missile dodged is right.
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Has Tom Fox replied to anyone's emails as yet?
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Thinking about it, keeping Lambert on for as long as we did ( against most fans' wishes) probably saved us from appointing Pulis. By the time Lerner saw sense, the Albion had already signed him up. More by luck than judgement, but we really dodged a bullet there
There were a few on H&V who were saying just the opposite when Sherwood was appointed and how we'd missed the manager to save us ;)
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Has Tom Fox replied to anyone's emails as yet?
I thought it was quite an emphatic reply when he sacked Lambert.
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I'm still waiting for my response. How very rude!
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Maybe - and this is just a wild guess - that after two of the previous three managers including Lambert's guru ended up taking us for serious amounts of compensation and the third didn't do too badly out of being sacked, Tom & Randy wanted to make sure that he had absolutely no unfair dismissal comebacks.
That would imply a level of planning and nous on the part of Lerner and his cohorts hitherto completely lacking. But I suppose Fox's new influence could have been the telling factor, or it could be that even the biggest fool can eventually learn from his mistakes.
In any case we still don't know if the decision will work out, or whose decision it really was, and why they waited so long, so some doubts as to whether Fox deserves any credit just yet.
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Was Fox here when we gave Lambert the ridiculous contract extension?
he was, but then again he was new in his job. The big boss comes out and says he wants to give his mate a new deal, the new boy in the office isn't going to have a ton of pull so early on. I imagine over time though Fox was able to convince Lerner to "rethink" the decision and made easier as we slipped quietly and conveniently into the bottom 3.
TV, Not knocking you but I remember reading one of the Brain Clough books years ago, the Tony Francis one I think, in which Cloughie was quoted as saying that he always made his toughest decisions as soon as he was appointed, as he reckoned that was when he had the most power and support from the men above.
Didn't serve him too well at Leeds, mind.
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Credit for the decision to hire Sherwood Mr Fox. It's proved to be brilliant.
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Interview with Fox here:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/30/aston-villa-tom-fox-chief-executive-randy-lerner-fa-cup-final?
Some interesting stuff. I just find the following quote a bit defeatist to be honest.
...the club should aim to be the best of the rest outside the top six
Would still be a big step up from the last 4 years though.
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Interview with Fox here:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/30/aston-villa-tom-fox-chief-executive-randy-lerner-fa-cup-final?
Some interesting stuff. I just find the following quote a bit defeatist to be honest.
...the club should aim to be the best of the rest outside the top six
Would still be a big step up from the last 4 years though.
Well, to be fair he also said he hopes Randy is owner for a long, long time, and given we know that Randy's MO isn't to spunk £100m every summer we can't really expect to surpass Liverpool or Spurs (atm) let alone the top four. So in light of that by putting 'experts in every level of the club' we need to subsequently get a maximum return from all of our dealings whether it be sponsorships, players (and their performances), coaching, transfers etc. I think Fox has done well to bring back the expectation from within the club, obviously we the fans always expect to be competitive. I hope he continues to hold his "department managers", so to speak, to a high standard. I don't expect to crash the the Top 4 while Lerner is still at the helm but a few 6th-9th place finishes in the near future and I'd be a happy man. Maybe get to enjoy the second half of the season for once..
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Yeah I agree with your points, I just don't appreciate the 'turnover' = 'acceptable league position' equation that appears to be in place. As realistic as it is.
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Liverpool and Spurs can't afford to spunk 100 mill every summer either. They did that once because they sold their most valuable asset. Look how that worked out.
That interview is the most depressing thing to come out of the club in a long while. There is not a thing in it that represents a clear, aggressive statement of intent.
I actually liked the way we told Liverpool to do one when they came sniffing around Benteke. Both Sherwood and Fox have countenanced the sale of Benteke in recent days, it doesn't look good to me.
He could really have made a lot more of a club at its lowest ebb in a generation still being the 7th most watched in the globe, although I can suspect that viewers may have been under the impression that they had tuned into an obscure Thai game show.
If that is the best he can come up with then he can fuck off back to Arsenal.
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Credit for the decision to hire Sherwood Mr Fox. It's proved to be brilliant.
It's ok but hardly brilliant.
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Credit for the decision to hire Sherwood Mr Fox. It's proved to be brilliant.
It's ok but hardly brilliant.
It's certainly more than ok. From looking like we'd finish bottom to playing half decent stuff, a final to look forward to, showing decent form in most games. I think brilliant isn't too far off from what and where we were.
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There's nothing wrong with saying we should be aiming for 7th-9th each season with the current state of the club and the teams fighting for top 6 positions in the league. In a few years time, once we're consistently reaching the target of 7th-9th then the targets can be reassessed and we aim for 5th-6th...a few years later, the target could be aiming to break top 4. Whilst football remains to be relative to financial investment in the playing squad and wages, then its going to take a while for both income to increase, and youth players to be developed and integrated. Success in the Premier League can only be attained now with a long term plan due to financial fairplay, and it will be interesting to see how things develop over the next 5 years.
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Liverpool and Spurs can't afford to spunk 100 mill every summer either. They did that once because they sold their most valuable asset. Look how that worked out.
That interview is the most depressing thing to come out of the club in a long while. There is not a thing in it that represents a clear, aggressive statement of intent.
I actually liked the way we told Liverpool to do one when they came sniffing around Benteke. Both Sherwood and Fox have countenanced the sale of Benteke in recent days, it doesn't look good to me.
He could really have made a lot more of a club at its lowest ebb in a generation still being the 7th most watched in the globe, although I can suspect that viewers may have been under the impression that they had tuned into an obscure Thai game show.
If that is the best he can come up with then he can fuck off back to Arsenal.
So the public statement that we'll be negotiating for a contract extension with Benteke in the summer isn't a positive or statement of intent?
A good few people on here have been debating the pros and cons of selling this summer for a larger fee or an extra season on the pitch and a lower fee in 12 months. A contract extension has been viewed as pie in the sky.
The fact that he's identified the potential to improve our commercial revenues by £8-10M, which will directly allow us to spend more on both fees and wages isn't a positive?
The fact that he recognises that we shouldn't be viewed as or settle for being perennial bottom feeders, but seeing ourselves as having a natural "base" position of 7th - 9th isn't positive?
If he'd come out with Champions League in 5 years he'd have, quite rightly, been pilloried.
It's a bell of a lot better than the "hoping for survival" benchmark a lot of us suspected was the sum of our ambitions.
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To be honest this is the quote that worries me
3, is only a year older than him, which means they have plenty in common. “At one point Randy and I are going back and forth on email and he’s quoting Dylan lyrics and I’m going back with Steely Dan lyrics.”
Dear oh dear
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Asked whether Villa plan to offer Benteke a new contract, Fox replies: “Absolutely. He’s young, he’s unplayable on his day, he’s incredibly important. I talk to his agent on a fairly regular basis. We’re not doing anything on it right now – we’re focused on the end of the season and the FA Cup – but Tim is 100% right: you don’t allow your players that are big assets at the club to be in a position where the club is disadvantaged, so you want to have them signed long term. I’m sure we’ll be having conversations with Christian and his people in the summer.”
Got to say I'm pretty happy with that.
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Liverpool and Spurs can't afford to spunk 100 mill every summer either. They did that once because they sold their most valuable asset. Look how that worked out.
That interview is the most depressing thing to come out of the club in a long while. There is not a thing in it that represents a clear, aggressive statement of intent.
I actually liked the way we told Liverpool to do one when they came sniffing around Benteke. Both Sherwood and Fox have countenanced the sale of Benteke in recent days, it doesn't look good to me.
He could really have made a lot more of a club at its lowest ebb in a generation still being the 7th most watched in the globe, although I can suspect that viewers may have been under the impression that they had tuned into an obscure Thai game show.
If that is the best he can come up with then he can fuck off back to Arsenal.
So the public statement that we'll be negotiating for a contract extension with Benteke in the summer isn't a positive or statement of intent?
A good few people on here have been debating the pros and cons of selling this summer for a larger fee or an extra season on the pitch and a lower fee in 12 months. A contract extension has been viewed as pie in the sky.
The fact that he's identified the potential to improve our commercial revenues by £8-10M, which will directly allow us to spend more on both fees and wages isn't a positive?
The fact that he recognises that we shouldn't be viewed as or settle for being perennial bottom feeders, but seeing ourselves as having a natural "base" position of 7th - 9th isn't positive?
If he'd come out with Champions League in 5 years he'd have, quite rightly, been pilloried.
It's a bell of a lot better than the "hoping for survival" benchmark a lot of us suspected was the sum of our ambitions.
Agree with you 100% ViD!!
Fox has come in to a club in terminal decline with the stench of relegation around. If he can help establish regular 7-9 finishes in the next few years he will have built a fine platform. Once we get there he'll realise how big we can be.
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Asked whether Villa plan to offer Benteke a new contract, Fox replies: “Absolutely. He’s young, he’s unplayable on his day, he’s incredibly important. I talk to his agent on a fairly regular basis. We’re not doing anything on it right now – we’re focused on the end of the season and the FA Cup – but Tim is 100% right: you don’t allow your players that are big assets at the club to be in a position where the club is disadvantaged, so you want to have them signed long term. I’m sure we’ll be having conversations with Christian and his people in the summer.”
Got to say I'm pretty happy with that.
I am too. However, if you are trying to entice your best player to hang around for a few more seasons then you need to be a bit more ambitious than aiming for between 7th and 9th.
A player of Benteke's quality deserves to be in the big cup.
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For me the proof will be in the actions rather than dissecting statements though undoubtedly in that position he needs manage what he says because of the very public reaction it can have. That said, weeks after essentially backing Lambert he fired him, I wouldn't put too much stock into things like 7-9th. I'm sure if we were exceeding those initial goals nobody is going to complain and they will just set new goals based on where the club is. Also I don't think Fabian Delph was signing for a few more years, or even Ron Vlaar now thinking of staying with the lofty prospect of mid table in their minds. I think he's being very guarded overall because things are happening behind the scenes that could change just about everything.
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Re Benteke , you just need him in a long term contract with sensible release clauses and appropriate wages / bonuses in place.
Win win, he keeps delivering he will get his move and we will get his true market value.
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Although if we could hang on to him for long enough to get to 7-9th, then we will have a much better chance of replacing him with someone who is worth the money we'd have to spend, which in turn could help us to edge further up the table.
What we don't want is to lose him while we are still perennial relegation strugglers, because that will leave us with a sum of money that isn't worth as much as it should be in the transfer market.
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I really don't think the gap between us and say finishing 8th is that wide. If we played all season like we have recently then mid table security would be easily achieved. Selling Benteke this summer for £35m for example if invested well would allow us to close that gap. Let's face it, without spending a penny Sherwood has improved our overall play considerably and that is with players who none cost more than £7m. There is so much value in the £5-10m range but you have to be astute to find it and we've not done badly in recent years. The market just gets a little crazy beyond say £15m mark because while you should get better players it simply doesn't always work out that way. See Liverpool and Spurs for massively overinflated spending with a less than spectacular return.
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Has sherwood signed anyone yet as a manager, can't recall if he had a window at Spurs ?
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I have to admit I have been impressed with Fox thus far, but this idea that we are a club that should aim for 7th, 8th, 9th place year in year out is very disappointing indeed and sells the club short. If Randy's idea is to stick around whilst lowering the club's ambitions to the level of a Swansea or Southampton then that simply is not good enough. No club has a divine right to success - I get that - but, likewise, no club in a competitive sport should aim to just tick along making up the numbers. The aim of the game for Aston Villa should be winning titles and cups not wanting to be the "best of the rest". If this is a short-term one/two year aim, fair enough. If this is the grand plan for Villa I wish them luck filling the ground, creating new generations of Villa supporters and so on.
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Has sherwood signed anyone yet as a manager, can't recall if he had a window at Spurs ?
I bet he a window in his office at Villa Park AND at Bodymoor Heath. Have that Spurs you wankers!
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
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I really don't think the gap between us and say finishing 8th is that wide. If we played all season like we have recently then mid table security would be easily achieved. Selling Benteke this summer for £35m for example if invested well would allow us to close that gap. Let's face it, without spending a penny Sherwood has improved our overall play considerably and that is with players who none cost more than £7m. There is so much value in the £5-10m range but you have to be astute to find it and we've not done badly in recent years. The market just gets a little crazy beyond say £15m mark because while you should get better players it simply doesn't always work out that way. See Liverpool and Spurs for massively overinflated spending with a less than spectacular return.
The Liverpool and Tottenham thing is important. Southampton had a similar windfall summer with £90m-ish coming in but instead of throwing money at the likes of Balotelli and Lamela they stuck to their recruitment strategy, just buying a few more than they would've to fill out the squad and they've moved forward rather than falling back like the others. Importantly they didn't feel the need to spend all of the money that came in to show that they were being ambitious.
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I really don't think the gap between us and say finishing 8th is that wide. If we played all season like we have recently then mid table security would be easily achieved. Selling Benteke this summer for £35m for example if invested well would allow us to close that gap. Let's face it, without spending a penny Sherwood has improved our overall play considerably and that is with players who none cost more than £7m. There is so much value in the £5-10m range but you have to be astute to find it and we've not done badly in recent years. The market just gets a little crazy beyond say £15m mark because while you should get better players it simply doesn't always work out that way. See Liverpool and Spurs for massively overinflated spending with a less than spectacular return.
Pedant Alert. N'Zogbia?
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
I was just about to say that if you took the average of our finishing positions in the PL era, either as the mean or mode I'd guess that you'd probably end up with an answer that was around 7th to 9th.
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I really don't think the gap between us and say finishing 8th is that wide. If we played all season like we have recently then mid table security would be easily achieved. Selling Benteke this summer for £35m for example if invested well would allow us to close that gap. Let's face it, without spending a penny Sherwood has improved our overall play considerably and that is with players who none cost more than £7m. There is so much value in the £5-10m range but you have to be astute to find it and we've not done badly in recent years. The market just gets a little crazy beyond say £15m mark because while you should get better players it simply doesn't always work out that way. See Liverpool and Spurs for massively overinflated spending with a less than spectacular return.
Pedant Alert. N'Zogbia?
Eek, Jeez, you're right.
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
I was just about to say that if you took the average of our finishing positions in the PL era, either as the mean or mode I'd guess that you'd probably end up with an answer that was around 7th to 9th.
I'm sad enough to work it out, so, even without the previous 3 seasons our average in the PL era is 8.42. Add those and it's 9.36.
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
Well, they talked about a 5-year plan to get into the Champions League under O'Neill and look how that went. It's sensible to set realistic and achievable targets and adjust them once we're there. It's not difficult to become a top 10 side and then not too difficult to get onto the fringes of top 5 or 6. The glass ceiling is trying to go from 5th to 4th - as Spurs found a couple of years ago and how we found under O'Neill.
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Mid table next season is a good target, playing attractive football, strengthening the squad on the way, then press on from there.
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I really don't think the gap between us and say finishing 8th is that wide. If we played all season like we have recently then mid table security would be easily achieved. Selling Benteke this summer for £35m for example if invested well would allow us to close that gap. Let's face it, without spending a penny Sherwood has improved our overall play considerably and that is with players who none cost more than £7m. There is so much value in the £5-10m range but you have to be astute to find it and we've not done badly in recent years. The market just gets a little crazy beyond say £15m mark because while you should get better players it simply doesn't always work out that way. See Liverpool and Spurs for massively overinflated spending with a less than spectacular return.
Pedant Alert. N'Zogbia?
Yes true. Mind you up until Sherwood arrived you and I were worth more than N'Zogbia.
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within five years it would fire the whole club up, surely? What's wrong with a bit of ambition and thinking outside the box to get there. Who knows, a bit of belief and focus could fire us up to do a Dortmund or Atletico. The problem with making statements that suggest we are settling for average is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: we will attract sponsorship deals on a par with the Southamptons of this world when really we should be getting similar deals (at least) to the likes of Spurs. Like I say, I appreciate we don't have a divine right to success, but neither has any other club. Why, by settling for second best, are we making it easier for other clubs to win things? If this is a short term vision count me in, if it's a long term strategy it makes me ask the question, "What's the point?"
Those stats about top six finishes are interesting in that I am sure they stand up well against most clubs. My maths might be wrong here but I think we have had nine top six finishes in the Premier League era compared to Spurs' seven - and that is including the write-offs of the past four seasons. If we are not competing with the likes of Spurs - at the very least - I really do think we are being sold short.
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Mid table next season is a good target, playing attractive football, strengthening the squad on the way, then press on from there.
Yes assuming we stay up that would be a decent target
The same target we set in 2011-12, 12-13, 13-14 and this season.
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within five years it would fire the whole club up, surely? What's wrong with a bit of ambition and thinking outside the box to get there. Who knows, a bit of belief and focus could fire us up to do a Dortmund or Atletico. The problem with making statements that suggest we are settling for average is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: we will attract sponsorship deals on a par with the Southamptons of this world when really we should be getting similar deals (at least) to the likes of Spurs. Like I say, I appreciate we don't have a divine right to success, but neither has any other club. Why, by settling for second best, are we making it easier for other clubs to win things? If this is a short term vision count me in, if it's a long term strategy it makes me ask the question, "What's the point?"
Those stats about top six finishes are interesting in that I am sure they stand up well against most clubs. My maths might be wrong here but I think we have had nine top six finishes in the Premier League era compared to Spurs' seven - and that is including the write-offs of the past four seasons. If we are not competing with the likes of Spurs - at the very least - I really do think we are being sold short.
Who knows what they are saying in private, they may well be aiming higher for all we know. The point is if he said we aim to be CL/title challengers in x years he'd be ripped just as much as he is for what he did say.
I hope we are aiming higher but the reality is we average 8th or 9th in the league since the PL started, our ground is the 7th biggest (9th when Spurs and West Ham move) and we are normally around the 8th or 9th best supported (currently 11th). I don't see how what he has said is selling us short when everything points to that being our place in the game, whether we like it or not.
It also doesn't mean we have to settle for it long term, but we've got to get to 7th or 9th before we can look at pushing on from there.
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within five years it would fire the whole club up, surely? What's wrong with a bit of ambition and thinking outside the box to get there. Who knows, a bit of belief and focus could fire us up to do a Dortmund or Atletico. The problem with making statements that suggest we are settling for average is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: we will attract sponsorship deals on a par with the Southamptons of this world when really we should be getting similar deals (at least) to the likes of Spurs. Like I say, I appreciate we don't have a divine right to success, but neither has any other club. Why, by settling for second best, are we making it easier for other clubs to win things? If this is a short term vision count me in, if it's a long term strategy it makes me ask the question, "What's the point?"
Those stats about top six finishes are interesting in that I am sure they stand up well against most clubs. My maths might be wrong here but I think we have had nine top six finishes in the Premier League era compared to Spurs' seven - and that is including the write-offs of the past four seasons. If we are not competing with the likes of Spurs - at the very least - I really do think we are being sold short.
Who knows what they are saying in private, they may well be aiming higher for all we know. The point is if he said we aim to be CL/title challengers in x years he'd be ripped just as much as he is for what he did say.
I hope we are aiming higher but the reality is we average 8th or 9th in the league since the PL started, our ground is the 7th biggest (9th when Spurs and West Ham move) and we are normally around the 8th or 9th best supported (currently 11th). I don't see how what he has said is selling us short when everything points to that being our place in the game, whether we like it or not.
It also doesn't mean we have to settle for it long term, but we've got to get to 7th or 9th before we can look at pushing on from there.
Don't get me started on Spurs and West Ham's stadium expansions or I'll never stop!
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Seems to be the same conversation on 2 threads so i'll stick this here as well.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within 5 five years he'd still get ripped. And what he says is also true whether we like it or not. We've finished top six 16 times since the end of WW2, less than a quarter of the time. Higher than 6th just the 6 times.
If he said we intend to be title challengers within five years it would fire the whole club up, surely? What's wrong with a bit of ambition and thinking outside the box to get there. Who knows, a bit of belief and focus could fire us up to do a Dortmund or Atletico. The problem with making statements that suggest we are settling for average is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: we will attract sponsorship deals on a par with the Southamptons of this world when really we should be getting similar deals (at least) to the likes of Spurs. Like I say, I appreciate we don't have a divine right to success, but neither has any other club. Why, by settling for second best, are we making it easier for other clubs to win things? If this is a short term vision count me in, if it's a long term strategy it makes me ask the question, "What's the point?"
Those stats about top six finishes are interesting in that I am sure they stand up well against most clubs. My maths might be wrong here but I think we have had nine top six finishes in the Premier League era compared to Spurs' seven - and that is including the write-offs of the past four seasons. If we are not competing with the likes of Spurs - at the very least - I really do think we are being sold short.
Who knows what they are saying in private, they may well be aiming higher for all we know. The point is if he said we aim to be CL/title challengers in x years he'd be ripped just as much as he is for what he did say.
I hope we are aiming higher but the reality is we average 8th or 9th in the league since the PL started, our ground is the 7th biggest (9th when Spurs and West Ham move) and we are normally around the 8th or 9th best supported (currently 11th). I don't see how what he has said is selling us short when everything points to that being our place in the game, whether we like it or not.
It also doesn't mean we have to settle for it long term, but we've got to get to 7th or 9th before we can look at pushing on from there.
It's all down to the terminology used. If he'd said "I see us pushing for Europe on a regular basis" it would mean much the same thing but nobody would have complained.
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Mods - I'm cutting and pasting this from the Benteke thread. You may want to delete that one.
Fox has said that a sale isn't imminent so i doubt that there can be any factual basis for saying that he came here ahead of any sale. I think he likes being the big cheese compared to what i guess he had at Arsenal. he had the say so in sacking Lambert and it may be that he's running things at Villa with Lerner happily getting updates and signing off the big decisions - such as sacking Lambert.
Modify message
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I'd say that with some of the players we have and a summer of good recruitment we can easily make the leap from relegation battles to inside the top 10 and pushing.
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I suspect that Fox referred to competing outside the top 6 because, if you read the recent coverage of the Premier League's return to profitability and its link to FFP, several commentators remark that FFP will reinforce the clubs that already have a high revenue base and squads with quality in depth.
Clubs that regularly play in Europe will always be able to outspend those that don't because their higher revenue will enable them to pay more in wages.
Our short-term realistic aspiration therefore is likely to be in the 7-10 places of the League, by executing clever player-acquisition and a more fruitful academy. Sort of what Lambarse tried ...
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I've no problem with finishing 7th-9th as long as we go all out to win cups. 58 years is ridiculous.
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Also, while I'm on, can someone tell me if the FA Cup Final thread is the pre-match thread? I'm superstitious about only reading them on matchdays you see.
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Impressed he was able to trot out the stat on viewing figures in such a way it compered us to Barca and Real and bigger than all the German clubs. Very clever.
Why? Because he is clearly using this sort of data to position Aston Villa as a global player that attracts massive audiences.
It's what you need to do if want to bring in the bigger sponsorship/kit deals and play by the rules to get around the FFP limitations.
You never know, it may even mean cheaper tickets rather than richer player agents.
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Fox has been very consistent on this. At the Trust AGM he referred to us as having the best house on a terrible street whereas he wants a bungalow on the Kings Road.
He also spoke at length about how he intends to use our size and importance to gain proper partners rather than selling to the highest bidder for shirt and advertising deals.
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Impressed he was able to trot out the stat on viewing figures in such a way it compered us to Barca and Real and bigger than all the German clubs. Very clever.
Why? Because he is clearly using this sort of data to position Aston Villa as a global player that attracts massive audiences.
It's what you need to do if want to bring in the bigger sponsorship/kit deals and play by the rules to get around the FFP limitations.
You never know, it may even mean cheaper tickets rather than richer player agents.
I missed this. Can somebody link to the story or relevant page on here? Ta.
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Impressed he was able to trot out the stat on viewing figures in such a way it compered us to Barca and Real and bigger than all the German clubs. Very clever.
Why? Because he is clearly using this sort of data to position Aston Villa as a global player that attracts massive audiences.
It's what you need to do if want to bring in the bigger sponsorship/kit deals and play by the rules to get around the FFP limitations.
You never know, it may even mean cheaper tickets rather than richer player agents.
I missed this. Can somebody link to the story or relevant page on here? Ta.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/30/aston-villa-tom-fox-chief-executive-randy-lerner-fa-cup-final
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Fox has been very consistent on this. At the Trust AGM he referred to us as having the best house on a terrible street whereas he wants a bungalow on the Kings Road.
That's a great line that Blues, Albion fans etc. would hate. I probably think the same way too as I'm not really bothered by local rivalries, it's glory hunters that drive me nuts.
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Also, while I'm on, can someone tell me if the FA Cup Final thread is the pre-match thread? I'm superstitious about only reading them on matchdays you see.
Not really no. Posts are mainly the "tickets booked, hotel booked, wahoo!!" variety.
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Impressed he was able to trot out the stat on viewing figures in such a way it compered us to Barca and Real and bigger than all the German clubs. Very clever.
Why? Because he is clearly using this sort of data to position Aston Villa as a global player that attracts massive audiences.
It's what you need to do if want to bring in the bigger sponsorship/kit deals and play by the rules to get around the FFP limitations.
You never know, it may even mean cheaper tickets rather than richer player agents.
I missed this. Can somebody link to the story or relevant page on here? Ta.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/30/aston-villa-tom-fox-chief-executive-randy-lerner-fa-cup-final
Bless you.
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Also, while I'm on, can someone tell me if the FA Cup Final thread is the pre-match thread? I'm superstitious about only reading them on matchdays you see.
Not really no. Posts are mainly the "tickets booked, hotel booked, wahoo!!" variety.
Thank you.
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Tickets booked, flights booked, hotel booked, wahoo!
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You got bloody tickets? Fuck off. Come on, someone, help me out. He doesn't even come from sodding Birmingham.
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Fox wasn't doorstepped or asked awkward question. it was the type of friendly article that gave Fox opportunity to say what he wants about topics of his choosing.
He could have been a whole lot more positive without making a rod for his own back. Instead he did a Houllier, but seems to have got away with it because the team is winning and playing well.
His analogy about housing was meaningless twaddle. Were are neither a house nor a bungalow. We are the Villa. Of Birmingham.
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don't forget this is a business man seeing things objectively through business eyes. He's not a Villa fan and may not care too much about the emotions of the game. He is there to make an under performing business better. One of the criticisms of Ellis was the corner shop mentality and like it or not modern day football has become as much about the business side as the football side. Therefore, to get the business side done right you need a business minded person. That's what Fox comes across as to me. He's the type that would resonate better to shareholders after dividends rather than football fans but that doesn't mean he's not the right person for the job. He seems to get what needs to be done and just because we don't like his terminology doesn't mean he won't be one of the most influential employees of the club for years to come.
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don't forget this is a business man seeing things objectively through business eyes. He's not a Villa fan and may not care too much about the emotions of the game. He is there to make an under performing business better. One of the criticisms of Ellis was the corner shop mentality and like it or not modern day football has become as much about the business side as the football side. Therefore, to get the business side done right you need a business minded person. That's what Fox comes across as to me. He's the type that would resonate better to shareholders after dividends rather than football fans but that doesn't mean he's not the right person for the job. He seems to get what needs to be done and just because we don't like his terminology doesn't mean he won't be one of the most influential employees of the club for years to come.
Agree 100%.
Quietly impressed by what he's got done in a short space of time.
I know some people will point at the Lambert contract, but I'm convinced that was one of the jobs waiting on his desk from Lerner with a "just get this one sorted ASAP" note on it. He probably spent the next 5 months wondering which drugs Lerner was on.
Everything else he's done has been with a medium to long term view of how to update and upgrade the way the club works behind the scenes to give it the best chance on the pitch, the obvious exception being Sherwood which was an acute now or never decision, which, for now, looks like it was a good one.
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don't forget this is a business man seeing things objectively through business eyes. He's not a Villa fan and may not care too much about the emotions of the game. He is there to make an under performing business better. One of the criticisms of Ellis was the corner shop mentality and like it or not modern day football has become as much about the business side as the football side. Therefore, to get the business side done right you need a business minded person. That's what Fox comes across as to me. He's the type that would resonate better to shareholders after dividends rather than football fans but that doesn't mean he's not the right person for the job. He seems to get what needs to be done and just because we don't like his terminology doesn't mean he won't be one of the most influential employees of the club for years to come.
Agree 100%.
Quietly impressed by what he's got done in a short space of time.
I know some people will point at the Lambert contract, but I'm convinced that was one of the jobs waiting on his desk from Lerner with a "just get this one sorted ASAP" note on it. He probably spent the next 5 months wondering which drugs Lerner was on.
Everything else he's done has been with a medium to long term view of how to update and upgrade the way the club works behind the scenes to give it the best chance on the pitch, the obvious exception being Sherwood which was an acute now or never decision, which, for now, looks like it was a good one.
I'm quite sure that contract had various 'clauses' it's funny how as soon as we dropped into the bottom 3, he was sacked immediately.
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There also seemed to be a marketing plan in place as soon as Sherwood arrived. It was as though they were waiting for a new manager to come in so they could start selling the new product.
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There also seemed to be a marketing plan in place as soon as Sherwood arrived. It was as though they were waiting for a new manager to come in so they could start selling the new product.
Acting quickly and at the right moment is worth plenty. We can see there has been a very swift transformation and at least we have someone who is decisive.
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Kipeye - agree largely. But the fact is, we could still go down. I happen to think we won't now, but we're not safe yet and if we do go down, there'll be plenty of people lining up to say he should have acted quicker getting rid of lambert.
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Kipeye - agree largely. But the fact is, we could still go down. I happen to think we won't now, but we're not safe yet and if we do go down, there'll be plenty of people lining up to say he should have acted quicker getting rid of lambert.
There isn't anyone who doesn't say he should have acted quicker.